EP002 - Dealing positively with divorce (with Peter)

It's easy to lose a bit too much of yourself when in a relationship and/or raising young children. As well as dealing with divorce positively; we discuss making time for yourself after a relationship breakdown,  how to improve your sleeping habits and why you might not want to share a paddleboard with Chris.

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Peter joined us on the Windermere Weekend by Adventure Solos, you can find details of that event here:
https://www.adventuresolos.com/windermere-weekend

He is also joining us for a Canoe Scotland event:
https://www.adventuresolos.com/canoe-scotland-adventure

If you like the sound of the Gusto meal boxes, you can get 55% off your first box, and 25% any other boxes during the first 2 months, using this link here (full disclosure - Chris gets £30 Gusto credit if you use this link too):
https://cook.gousto.co.uk/raf/?promo_code=CHRIS43613799&utm_source=iosapp

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Transcript

Peter:
There's probably a lot of people out there based upon conversations with people out that weekend, the way Chris, who are kind of lost a bit of themselves in their relationship, um, over the years and they've maybe sacrificed a bit too much of themselves in relationships and then are having to go through a very lengthy process of trying to rediscover themselves and what they want to do with their time.

Chris:
Hey, it is Chris here from Adventure Solos where we help people in their thirties, forties, and fifties to rediscover themselves and meet new people. In this episode, my friend Noel and I are chatting to Peter. Peter's going through a divorce and I think he's dealing with it in a really positive way, which is the reason for chatting to him today.

Peter joined us for one of the Windermere Weekends, and that was his first step really, to get him back out and rediscovering himself after being a dedicated stay-at-home parent . We chat about how your world can shrink when you go in through a divorce, how to improve your sleep patterns, and apparently why you shouldn't get on the same paddle board as me.

If you'd like to find out more about Adventure Solos events, visit AdventureSolos.com. That's AdventureSolos.com where you're very welcome to stay in touch by joining the mailing list. So AdventureSolos.com and enter your details to sign up to the mailing list

Peter:
I live in. I live in Cardiff. I'm a father of two children.

I was a stay at home parent for a couple of years after the financial crash. Um, My job got outsourced to India, so my wife and I decided I'd become a stayat home parents, and, and I've, I loved it, to be honest with you. Absolutely loved to spend time to spend time with the kids, and I loved taking them to school and back at the same time, I retrained and I completed a degree in economics, full-time degree, and then re returned to work.

A couple of years later for numerous reasons, and my wife and I split up and it's, it has been kind of an emotionally challenging process. So I promised myself that I'd really, you know, for many, many years I had really quite like dedicated to the home life and to the kids and, and I kind have not really taken enough time to just think about what I wanted to do.

I hadn't really put any effort into doing what I wanted to do, so I decided that, well, yeah, I mean, I, I deserved to spend some money on, on myself. I just got a new job and I thought, yeah, absolutely, you know, um, and it was good. It was great. It was good to kinda like meet new people and it was good to just get outside my comfort zone as well.

You. My plan is for that to be the first of many trips and I'm hoping to do some charity walks as well, and uh, and to really kind of push my boundaries and what I've done before and I've got a little old bucket list I wanna complete as well. So that's kind of it in a nutshell. But I have, I suppose emotionally I have been at a very, very low out just before I went away, but gradually build myself back up again.

Yes. Prior

to you losing your job, your wife was fulfilling that role and she was looking after the kids before you. Took over. No,

we both, we both worked full-time, but I became a stay at home parent and she went for a promotion and she got there. I like to think that the fact that she didn't have to talk about school runs and, and the home logistics and the house during the week, it gave her the chance to focus on more of her career.

She's done very well for herself. I then started working again. I think that there was a, maybe an expectation in the relationship where I would still be on call at home more so than really I should have been. I don't think Covid helped either. But now I, you know, I, I, I work in Bristol twice a week, um, and I work from home the rest of the week and that, that, that balance suits me fine, you know?

Um, and I see the kids three, four times a week as well.

Part of the reason for, for getting you on to have this chat really was exactly what you described there in. I guess there's almost two ways you can take these challenges or, or, or life events or whatever you want to call them. Um, opportunities, like you couldn't, I suspect it's really easy to be quite destructive and I'm sure a lot of people resort to drinking too much and things like that.

There's almost a, a constructive way and a healthy way to, to, to respond to these things or there's a, an unhealthy and, and a sort of destructive way

I think for many people who can, and there was, there was a, a sister-in-law's husband, he, when they split up, he. , he turned to alcohol and he's no longer, you know, around he, he passed away.

Um, and I think it's very easy also to kind of get stuck in this habit of literally just staying indoors and watching television every evening, um, and not looking after yourself and not eating well and not exercise and drinking too much. And I was pretty much determined not to do that. I wanted to be healthier.

I knew I was overweight. And, um, and one think I noticed, you know, at the weekend there were lots of people who were kind of in similar circumstances where they had a new part of their life starting and they wanted to open up, uh, to new experiences and, and enjoyed life a bit more. And some of 'em I think, had done these kind before, but some of them, it was very, very new to some of them.

Have you found

that an easy adjustment? Cuz it's, it's quite a mental challenge, isn't it? I think when you split it with someone to sort of, to try and see any positiveness to it and, and see it as a new start in any way. Yeah,

I think for me the, the, the leap of faith was just booking it. But one side. Got in the car, started driving up.

I actually just really enjoyed getting away. I've never been particularly fearful of physical activity and I like trying new things. So getting away and having new memories and new experiences was just, was so, so important, I think for many people is that you've, you've got nothing but memories from the past, which might not necessarily be healthy memories.

So you need to think of, okay, what else can I fill in my head? ,

before you were separated then, were you, were you quite good at having time to yourself apart? No. Was one person better than the other in that regard?

My, my ex-wife always had a desire for exceedingly busy social life. Um, and one other kind of causes of friction was, uh, you know, I, I, I felt as if when it came to my time, um, I, I was, I wanted to have some influence, um, and it was something that she couldn't accept.

Um, so, uh, you know, I think 90% of the arguments we had been about socializing, my view was that if you don't involve me in making plans and just spring things upon me, then you can't expect me to accept that. Um, for years and years, I think I was. The one holding the thought while she was pursuing an exceedingly busy social life, um, always out and about, and that, that's okay.

And I had learned to accept that. The way I wanted to draw the line was, okay, well if you have your interest, then I'm allowed to have mine. And she couldn't accept that in so many ways. Um, and it, it resorted in a little bit of coercion or a little bit of, uh, being subjugated to what I suppose is toxic behavior, actually.

Um, so it, it's been an adjustment focusing on myself, , and put myself first. Uh, because for many years I hadn't, uh, for many years, you know, I hadn't been away for a weekend without the kids for 10 years. Um, so it was such a refreshing experience to get away. Um, and also meeting people who are strangers was actually quite nice as well, because there's no, there's no precon.

People had to remove any preconceived ideas. Which you think is a good thing, you know, there's no judgment. Um, people were very friendly. Mm-hmm. , I hear these

struggles quite a lot with couples that I know this sort of division of time and, and especially when children are involved, people feeling that one is getting more time to do something than the other.

It's a funny one. Some couples, it works seamlessly and it doesn't seem to take a lot of organizings. There's, there's so many different ways it can be approached, aren't there? But I go away on motorcycle trips a lot and quite a lot often on my own. And it's often a really great, you feel slightly quite guilty about it, but it's a great reset for a relationship.

Quite often. I often return the conquering hero from these

trips, , because you, you maybe it's a slightly different dynamic for you. No. Cause you don't have children. I'm not saying you don't need to consider Ashley .

I think it was not, not unless a case, she wouldn't let me do things. It was just a case that I felt as if weekends would come along and they, they'd be planned out and mapped out, you know?

Well, I wanted a kind of virtual weekend where, okay. Saturday morning comes, what should I do with my time? I remember going to work on a Monday thinking this is my first chance to sit down since, since Friday. You know, because weekends were so hectic. Um, but that would, that was, you know, her preferred approach to life.

And that was funny. Then they, the kids are older now. You'd like to think that life would get a bit simpler, but it didn't. If anything, it became in some ways more chaotic. And, and now, you know, I see the kids three times a week, but, and I, I make sure they have time for me to do things that I enjoy.

So how old are your children?

12 and 16. Yeah. So one, they'll be, uh, university within two, three years and they'll begin to live their own lives and the more independent man than they were before. And you'd like to think that, would that independence, did you have a bit more free time as a, as a parent. But  it wasn't, it wasn't the case.

If, if anything, I felt as if I was being pulled, left, right, and center. How long have you been married before you split? Uh, would've been 15 years

last May. Well, I was gonna say, it sounds a bit like you mentioned at the beginning about being made redundant and in a way that led you to being the stay-at-home father.

Many people could see being made redundant as a negative thing and you almost sort of embraced and turned that into a positive thing. And it sounds like you're trying to do the same for, for this circumstance,

the whole office. I would and got my redundant and when I mentioned to some of the people I work with about become a stay home parent, they were kind of like a bit taken aback, you know, as if you've given up on life.

And the most, generally, most of the comments people have made have been really positive. I think I've probably just my own mistake, just probably given, give him two, a lot of myself into the home life and, and the marriage and relationship. While I think a lot. Uh, a a lot of kind of husbands and fathers have the sense to at least escape to a golf course every Sunday, or, or they're part of a cricket club.

And, and I, and I did. I wasn't that way inclined.

Did you meet any fathers who thought, well, this is, this is a dream to do what you are

doing? Actually, no. I didn't. I didn't. No. I mean, I think that they, a lot of them, a lot of them couldn't understand. Well, I think a lot of the, your identity is so close related to your occupation.

Okay. And this right of a status that might. So for a lot of men, they couldn't understand it, um, or they couldn't relate

to it. You never thought, Peter, because when this started to be talked about as an option for men, probably in the seventies, I'm imagining, so let's, let's pick out the seventies. You would never imagined that this would still be the case in 2022, that it would still be seen as something that's, you know, that's not really a man's role and, and isn't desirable?

Yeah, I think it's, it, uh, I think partially because the fact that it may only have two weeks off , you know what I mean? Still now we only have two weeks off and there's no opportunity for sharing, uh, you know, parental or leave like you have in other countries like Norway and Sweden, you know, and, and they also, there is still traditional mindset.

I mean, one thing that we struggled with is that I was become a stay home parent, but then she struggled the idea of not having control at home. So, you know, Monday to Friday that I, I'd managed the household and I think she struggled the idea of not having the, the, the, the authority in, in the household.

do

you think some of it's the ego in terms of, if, if you're saying, you know, men for whatever reasons feel the need to be seen as the breadwinner, let's say, is there a bit of ego in terms of men not generally being that stay at home parent?

I dunno whether not, you'd call it a traditional view on what men should be doing with their lives.

I live in a, in an area which is on, on, on the edge of a very well-to-do area. And you can see that you can, you know, I've noticed that kind of middle class pressure where the husband has a specific role and the stay at home mama has a specific role. The stay at home mom's role would be to, um, have the kids and meet with coffee and keep up at appearance, so to speak, and, and the fathers to the same extent, but in a different way.

So I think that for many people who simply just not relatable and also I don't think, I don't think it's for everybody because what happens when you become a stay home bank, your world shrinks. You're going from work on an obviously 20, 30 people and all of a sudden you are meeting a couple of parents at the schoolyard and you're picking your kids up and so your world does shrink, become a stay-home parenting.

I did go out on a couple of mum's dues and I did make an effort to, you know, be sociable with the mum's, but, and were you the only,

you generally the only father in that

situation? Yes. Yeah, I didn't quite fit in with some of the mums. I do wonder whether, not if Kath's kids a a Ben's range, it might have made things easier for me.

Did you see any of

the, uh, of the Motherland show on the, on the bbc? I mean, in a way that doesn't help, does it? Because the character, the male character in that is seen as a fairly sort of feckless hopeless bloke, which is a shame, isn't it? Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. That middle class pressure, uh, dme, I mean, it's, I've seen it, um, and you know, it's.

Know who has, who has the biggest S u V, you know, who, who has the Audi d Q five or the Audi q4 and, uh, who's been a away on holiday. And even for a place like Cardiff, it, it's, it's, it's an abundance. Um, and I'm not that way inclined. I really could not give a hoo at at all. All,

yeah. Well, probably like me, you, you've no idea what the difference is between a, an RDS five and an RDS

10.

My relationship with my children now, it's, it's that time with them has been priceless. You can't put a place on me. Um, you know, I know I have a. 30, 30,000 pound in student debt yet to pay off. But, uh, the time with them, it's more valuable than that. There's, there's no doubt about that. Yeah. Um,

were you deemed to be doing a good job by your wife?

Well, generally, no. I passed the, I did the degree full-time, and it was a very challenging degree doing economics. Uh, of all the, the courses that mature students do, they don't do economics. They'll do something like creative writing or history or, or something like that, but it would , they, they're not interested in delving into, um, econometrics and, and six pages of algebra.

Um, , uh, she has, uh, repeatedly reminded me that I never did enough in the housework. Uh, I wasn't good enough. Um, so, uh, there was always that feeling of, of not being good enough. But, you know, I, I I managed to look after the kids and do a full-time degree at the same time, and that was not easy.

You mentioned before about being that's their home parent, you felt you almost didn't gain enough time to out and have you time or social time, and I bet there's a lot of people listening that can Yeah.

That, that resonates with, there's,

there's a couple things there, one of which is, I, I did have time to myself, but it was fleeting. You know, I could go to the local pub with a, with a friend, but it's not as if I could, you know, if I, if I had a day to myself, there'd always be, you know, I'd have to come back to the house and make up for that lost time.

Uh, there was always that kind of implied pressure. Uh, or I'd come home and the house would be. A mess because she'd had a busy day and I'd have to pick up the slack and it was the picking up the slack. So I felt as if I couldn't necessarily, I certainly struggled to find it if I went out for a whole day, got away for a weekend.

It was just never happened for myself on my own. Just, just never happened. Um, so, uh, I, I think for, for for many people, um, maybe in a relationship with a partner who is driven to have a certain type of lifestyle, they may feel as if, uh, that they, they might not as have as much influence in what they do with their time.

They're an idea that they should have. I'm a big believer now that everyone needs a little, their time themselves. Um, uh, but then again, I'm, I'm an introvert. I get, I get something from a little bit of time myself and for her was the opposite. But I think that there's probably a lot of people out there based upon conversations with people out that weekend, the way Chris, who are kinda lost a bit of themselves in their relationship, um, over the years and they've maybe sacrificed a bit too much of themselves in relationships and then are having to go for this very lengthy peer recess of trying to rediscover themselves and what they want to do with their time.

Yeah, I think that's exactly right. There's a lot of people doing that and that's part of the reason, you know, it's, it's a thirties, forties, and fifties thing because people are going through, I guess, similar life change or they have similar Yeah. Perspectives in some ways. Um, you know, you can, you can, as you say, everybody's a stranger.

You can have completely different. Circumstances in a way, but actually there's a lot of commonality quite often.

Yeah. I think there were, there were one or two people on the trip who seemed to just taken their br in their stride, who, who'd done all these type of things before and were, uh, who were very kind of determined people who were just run up a tree and paddle a bow without an issue at all.

But you can certainly see some people who were kind of nervous about some of these activities. I think people in those circumstances would feel like way, probably benefit the most, uh, from really being brought outside their comfort zone. But the, even of the weekend, it wasn't the, not have been asked to run a trail run for 20 k or the pack on their back.

It was a, it was a gentle introduction to different things in. .

Yeah, I was thinking earlier, we uh, you said you made a comment about getting your revenge or something cuz we were on this giant sand up paddle board, so there's maybe six or eight people on this paddle board where we had a couple of them out but we were on the same one weren't we, Peter?

And you said, uh, cuz I was shaking it a bit to liven things up. I don't think that was completely appreciated. ,

I'm up for trying new things and you would say, well let's all get on our feet, get on our knees first. So we all got on our knees on this big paddle ball and then right over on their feet, uh, you know, with, I think you had the express intention, I'm gonna rock this paddle board.

Right. And we went over like dynamos didn't we? Um, and I thought it was the lady behind me doing it and I couldn't believe when I came outta the water coff this explosion that she was just sitting there on the paddle board and then I was trying to get off out the water and she was just like, You like their piece in an northern accent.

I said, well, can you give me hand again back on? Well, I mean, I know I've got another trip next year with Chris, so I, I haven't forgotten that particular instance Chris. So just, uh, word of warning there, there might be a moment where my, my, my paddle accidentally splashes you on the boat next to me, but we're,

you know, yeah, you're coming on.

So, so I think this is a good opportunity actually to talk about the, the positive things that you've been doing. So you mentioned the Wind Tome weekend. You, you're booked onto that Canoe Scotland event for the summer, but what else have you been doing? Well, I've

been going, I joined a new gym, uh, I've been going up until a week and a half ago.

Uh, but last week was really busy cuz we had a Christmas due with work gym three times a week. Um, I've lost, they had one of these machines at the gym where it, it's not just measures your, your weight, but you stand on it and you hold these handles and you stand on your, your arms up and they measures your whole body composition.

Right. Well, yeah. Well, you know, I, the thing is I knew I had, I was a bit overweight, right? But when it measures your, your water levels, your bone density, um, the amount of muscle fat you have on every part, like on per limb, when

it gave you the results, did you just sort of hit the side of it thinking this can't be right.

I kind of like, I looked at it and it was just, I think it was, it, it's, it's quite a clever technique by Jim's to do this. Because if anything's gonna motivate you to go to the gym more and join, right. And sign up is somebody telling you, dad, you've got 31% body fat, right? Yeah. Did

a skull and crossbones come up and start flashing?

Isn't he ?

You have this grade where you have under, you have. Normal, average, and then you have above. And I was like, Hmm, okay. And some of those things I was above. But another thing is I wasn't so bad. My, apparently my muscle density was, okay, well that's, and my water levels were okay as well. So, you know, I had enough water in my system.

What was the standout, shocking figure then that it gave you

that it was 31% body fell. Um, and it was 20% of which was around my trunk. Um, now I'm six foot two. And even though I, I can carry it still, you know, you're thinking, oh my god, like a top of a muffin that hangs over the, the, the, the paper case. I don't want one of them of my trousers.

How do you get rid of that? Well, no, I went, I went to gym three times a week. Um, and I, I changed meeting habits and more exercise and I lost, I got 8% body fat off and I lost. So far I've lost just over six kilos in fat, but my weight's gone up, so let's am I, um, because I'm doing a resistors word, my muscle density has increased my weight, body weight's gone up, but the muscle fat's dropped off.

How

long did it take before you started seeing that these numbers change?

Four

weeks. I was gonna say it's difficult cuz I think for me at least like the, the conscious effort to go to a gym, I've never been that good at it. A few times when I was working in London for example, I did manage to start building it into a lunchtime routine.

Um, but it's hard to maintain that cause you feel that doesn't happen naturally For me, that's not part of my routine. But you mentioned about eating habits and I think these are the sort of things like almost small nudges that you can do to just set yourself up so that things are automatic rather than having to be a conscious effort.

What I've found is the most important thing is as a foundation for exercise and diet is sleep. . And for a long time, I've had issues with sleep for a couple of years. Um, so my sleeping habits have improved. I'm sleeping better. Um, I can work for longer hours. Um, I'm less prone to eating unhealthy food. Um, and uh, yeah, so, and also the, the, the, the, the, it's a good gem.

I mean the, there's no mirrors, which is a godsend. I think it's different for you, Chris, but look quite a slim young man. I have, I have my father's jeans and I , I could pick up the weight as the time goes by. You know, Chris can't

cook, so he is got that on his side. Oh, okay. ,

that's not true. And, and nulls, uh, uh, taking offense, I've started having these gusto boxes delivered.

Should be on commission, shouldn't I? Um, yeah, and I quite like that. I think, you know, you're getting fresh food, you're cooking. Uh, I, I enjoy doing that in an evening.  and because what I don't enjoy is going to the supermarket and like I make a list and go to the supermarket and that's a pain in the ass for me.

But I have an Augusto turn up and cook a few meals a a week. It's nice.

What were your bad sleeping habits? Because I think I have bad sleeping habits. I go to bed

very late at home. Meals tended to be late. Sometimes we eat eight o'clock in the evening. So you have this, you have this period from getting up in the morning, being on the go up until mealtime and then you eat a meal and you're trying to, uh, decompress.

And you end up staying up later than you ideally you should. And also, I suppose for, for a while we weren't getting on and when she would go to bed before me, I would like then give a chance to relax a bit more. So ended up me staying up later than I really should have. What I've done now is I haven't allowed my clock on my phone and it goes off at Harpers nine.

My phone stays downstairs and I'm in bed by Harpers nine o'clock every night. And then I'm gradually waking up at about six every morning and I'm twice a rehab. I get to Bristol for eight o'clock for work. Um, so just simple things really. Yeah. And you'll sleep right through. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Sleep right through

that phone.

One is an obvious one, isn't it? But I, I've still not been able to do that. People talk about having like a day off, like a day without your phone, but I would genuinely feel lost. Why? What'd you

mean? Why'd you take your phone to.

Well, I mean, it's, it's a terrible habit, isn't it? But, but I think, well I just assume most people do.

For what reason? Why? Uh, I go on it, I go on it. Yeah. The pretty much the last thing I do at night, I'm on my phone cuz, cuz then when I put the light out, personally I sleep quite well still. But I put light out and I'm off. And when I get up in the morning and once wouldn't have sort of, you know, started to stare and wake up then Yeah.

On, on the phone. You

reach for that first cigarette on the

phone? Yeah, it is. But you're right cuz it is an addiction.

Where's your charger, Chris? Do you keep it upstairs or downstairs? It, it,

it's next to my bed.

Yeah. Uh, well it's just, if you just move it downstairs and then it charges overnight charge for the whole day.

That's all I do. I've got a wireless charger. I put it on the platform to charge up every night and the next day I pick it up.

I don't sleep with my phone in the bedroom and I do have a charger in the living room. It's, that's just part of the routine is you, you know, Shut everything down, put the phone on charge and go to bed.

But last night I took the phone to bed and, and watched a bit of TV on it and it just feels, doesn't feel nice having the phone in the bedroom. It just feels totally wrong

after a while. It's funny that, cuz I'm so, I'm, I've really always been, when, when I was about 18 now, when now I got a job in the pub and the, the first sort of time I got paid, I went out and bought a nice little Sony TV at the time.

Um, and so I had that in my bedroom. But ever since then, like since I've been 20 or whatever, I've never had a TV in the bedroom, I don't think. I'm trying to think back now. So I, I'm really against having a TV in a bedroom cuz then a TV program would come on and you'd stay up that extra hour. But I do take my phone into the bedroom and I've never really drawn a parallel between them thinking how anti TV in the bedroom I am.

But, but then I take my phone in,

I'm trying to get into the habit. I'm not quite there yet. I've le watching less TV in the evenings.  and doing other things with my time. And I, I'm, I'm trying to get to that point of I haven't quite managed to get away from the habit of doing things. In my evenings, I'll go the gym, but when I get back, I'll have some tweet and put the television on.

But I'm trying to move away from that. I'm thinking, you know, what else could I do with my time? You know? Um, as opposed to watching TV because, you know, there are other things I wanna do in my time, you know? What solutions have you found to that? I haven't just

yet. I'd like to go for a walk, Peter.

I have been going for a walk.

I have, but what I mean by doing things of my time is that I wanna do different things on my time in the house. Um, so I want to, maybe I wanna start drawing again like I used to when I was in my early twenties and in my teens, and start doing that again. But I suppose it's, it's partially to the fact that I haven't.

because I'm still at my mother's house. I've still got, I haven't really got a setup, a place that I feel is conducive for doing that. Um, so, so, so to speak. I mean, um, you know, so, you know, maybe when I have my own place, God knows whenever that's gonna be. Um, the situation will

change. I guess that's the other thing we've not touched on yet, is, you know, you think about divorce and the impact it has, you know, there's, there's very negative, I think, connotations about divorce anyway, but, but it has a huge impact on, on obviously yourself and your wife and that relationship.

But then you've got kids. But to be honest, it, it barely even crossed my mind. You've got huge things like the house and the finances and, and I guess almost the, the, the, the physical or legal process of divorce. There's a lot going on isn.

It is, it's weird that, you know, normally when you have a divorce, uh, stories, you hear stories of a, of a, of a male partner who's the one who's been working and the one who's doing well in his career, and you go for divorce and he has to make sacrifices in terms of, you know, the family assets towards the partner who may have spent more time with the children.

Um, but my situation is the reverse of that. Now, even though I work and I have a fairly good job at the moment, historically I haven't. Um, and I think she's just really struggled with an idea that it's reversed and it still had to view that she's a female, therefore she's entitled to the house. But it's not as simple as that.

Um, my, my mother's going through a post divorce. Divorced five years ago. Um, financial settlement, um, he's making a claim against her house, so I'm helping her at the same time as doing my own kind of divorce procedure. Um, and something I had learned is that generally for a long marriage, it's, it's 50 50, you know, and the court think of it as a, um, as being, as, as equality being the key thing to it, regardless of the gender.

So that's been something that has caused a bit of friction in, in, you know, her belief is that the house is hers and because she's been earning the money, you know, but it's not quite as straightforward as that. Now, of course, I've got the kids to think about her, but I think that she's, uh, worried about, you know, she's, she has an exceedingly good pension, um, and I think she's like, most people are very protective.

Of that

you mentioned there, and that's why I think it's nice to have this chat is cuz you, you know, you say you've gotta stop and think of what's best for the children, but how, how have you found the children? Were they surprised when they found out? How have they generally fed?

Well, I, it's hard to know what they're thinking because I, I told 'em I was moving out temporarily and then when we realized it wasn't gonna work out, we had to tell him we were gonna have a divorce.

Now what I had been doing to try and provide some continuity has been for, I think six months. I was there three mornings a week doing the kids' lunches for school. Um, fortunately I only lived next door. I lived next door to a family home cuz my grandmother was next door to us. So it's, it's quite easy for me to manage that.

Um, so I've, I. , I see the kids four times a week. So there is continuity there. I don't think it's ideal for them, to be honest. There are moments where I wish I could be there, or moments when they're not well or they're sick and I, I'm not there. But the, there's also moments where, you know, I'll pop in and see them and, and they're on their own.

And I would stay logged with, I would stay there for the evening even though it wasn't my day. So it's a, it's, it's a tricky balance. Cause I'm still ha trying to have my own life while at the same time saying to her, look, there needs to be boundaries both ways here. You know, I'm not on call. Um, so it's, it's, I don't think it's been easy for them.

Um, but they've, they seem to be a coping. Okay. I mean, one of. In the process of going through their mock, his mocks, and he seems to be managing that. Okay. And I'm, I talk to him like the basis and provide whatever support he wants. So I think because we've avoided arguing and confronted the kids, I think that's helped.

We haven't argued in front of the kids at all. Uh, we've always tried to avoid that. Uh, so I think, I like to think they're okay. But it's hard to tell sometimes. Yeah. Yeah.

My parents split it when I was 16 and for me, I had complete apathy towards the whole thing. In fact, quite selfishly. But for me, it just was just, life was just easier As a 16 year old, it just meant life was easier.

But, but I, I bet my mum's take on how I coped with it is very, very different. She'll probably say what you are saying, Peter, that she didn't really know how I was dealing with it. But as a 16 year old really wasn't that that bothered about.

Yeah, I mean my, my divorce when I was 14 and, you know, they rounded a lot and I think the biggest impact of my mother was upset about it.

It's a strange situation. I mean, I, I never thought I'd be divorced, but it is what it is. My

parents were about 20 when, when, I can never remember exactly. Sorry, I was about 20 when my parents divorced or, or separated or whatever. I think, I dunno, the divorce probably took a couple years. Um, but yeah, I think there was always a few, I was surprised.

I remember my mom telling me, cuz they were already basically living apart. My dad had taken a job up in Aberdeen. Um, so I'd been down in Cornor working for the summer. I got back, my mom picked me up and she told me, and I was surprised that it had happened. But I kind of thought, actually this is a positive thing for both of you.

And, and I guess there was an element of, hadn't really.  thought it was always best for them to be together anyway. Um, and, and it just sort of was almost logical and made common sense. It was never a big trauma. But I have to say, I think I felt in a way that they'd, they'd made the decision once we were grown up and there was no reason for them to be together anymore.

They weren't raising us. So they almost could, they were almost free together separate ways is kind of how I saw it. But your, did you step

Peter the odd, literally next door from them still? Yeah.

Yeah, I am. Yeah. So my mother moved in to the house, next door to our family home on the day we were getting married.

Actually, she moved in on that very

day.

That makes things slightly different, doesn't it? You haven't gone to Aberdeen?

No, no, I haven't gone to Aberdeen. No. Mum lived next door has been actually really helpful for, for many is they're pros and cons. So when I was doing my degree and stay at home parents, she was really helpful, really, really helpful.

Um, she had the kids and helped pick up the kids from school when I had lectures. On exams, but now that I'm here, it's, it's handy in terms of how close I'm to the kids. It, it's really, really helpful. And there's no doubt.

Have you lost friends as part of the separation?

My world has shrunk. Yeah. She was very close with some neighbors who, uh, you know, who, um, there were nice people, but I wasn't particularly interested in, in the social pressure at given appearances as she was.

So I haven't, I wouldn't say I've lost lost friends. Um, but my world has shrunk because obviously I'm not seeing her family anymore. And though I had, you know, it was, it was, it was sad that way. Dad invested so many years into the, into the relationships there. Um, you know, she's got two sisters, her father remarried, and I think it's, it's been helpful for her to portray me as a, a certain type of person.

I suppose I've lost my world's, got smaller, you know, um, but in some ways it's got simpler as well. And what, what are the sort

of new things have you taken up?

Since I can plan ahead now, in terms of what I will do in my time next year and the year after, actually, I, I think it was, it was the biggest difference is being, getting a new job because I would not have been able to, uh, or she would not have been happy with me working in Bristol, uh, at all.

She wouldn't have liked the idea of me working away from, from home and not being around as much as I, I used to be. Uh, so I got a new job and more money. Um, that was, that's been the biggest difference. And it's actually, it, it's a, compared to where I was working before, it's less stressed as well, less work, I mean, on the gym.

But I, I'm also trying to avoid. Been in a situation I was before where my life is too full. Do you know where you feel as if you have to fill your time? You have to your time. And I've committed the Constitution to not constantly look for ways to fill my time because it was one of the, one of the reasons why we split up in the first place is because, you know, there was this constant need too full time.

Um, I constantly have weekends mapped out and planned it.

I think I'm quite good at that. You are always filling time Chris, aren't you?

Yeah. Someone, I don't fully know what this means, but someone before has said about toxic productivity and I think there's definitely an element of that for me in terms of, you know, even on Sunday just gone like, I, I, I never have a day off and I was feeling a bit ill, I wasn't feeling great.

I had a bit of a cold and I was like, but I can't just, I can't have a day off and do nothing. I can't just stay in bed or sit in front of the tv. I'm always doing Yeah, fill in time. It's probably, it's probably to, to an extent where it's probably not really that healthy. I just always think I've got stuff I need to be doing and there is always stuff that can be done, but, but I'm not very good at choosing to leave that and not, it's like, I

remember, you know, when I was at home with feelings, if, if I sit down and just read a book or read newspaper, it's this like, okay, I might being lazy.

But, you know, it, it, it's, it's, we put pressure on ourselves, causely doing something because we're, if we're not, we're not making the most of our lives and we're not, you know, we must be doing something that as is, is worthy of a Facebook picture, but it isn't. So, I, I'm less harsh on myself if I'm, if I'm just sitting there reading the book for half an hour, I, I don't feel guilty about that.

Um, if I take the kids out somewhere and it's not. A hugely exciting fun ride. I don't get guilty about that because it's about me spend time with them and we just talk. So not everything has to be something worth talking about. Yeah.

Yeah. I know exactly what you mean. I get asked every week, what have I got planned for the weekend?

And  and the answer for the last 16 years or so has been nothing. I have nothing planned for the weekend, but I'm still asked that routinely every week. Yeah. What have I got planned? Well, nothing but something. Something will happen.

Yeah. Good weekend. For me, this is terrible, but a good weekend for me is not getting in the car and not going anywhere. Ideally. That's a good weekend. Not not leaving the yard almost.

I, I say as little as possible. That's my, as little as possible. Yeah.

So do you feel you've got your independence or identity back or something like that through this process?

Or you're starting to get it back? Yeah, I think

the last, the last three, four months has been quite stressful because I've been trying to manage two different divorce procedures. Um, I've been supporting them on doing all the paperwork for that, but I've taken a step back from that. Now she's, she's hardd a new solicitor.

Um, and I've, we, we've reached stage in my own divorce procedure, so I've, I I, I still have moments where, uh, I still have troughs. I still sometimes feel if I'm emotionally in a bit of a trench, uh, but they're less and less frequent. I dunno why it is, but for some reason that being in the office twice a week makes a huge difference to me because I feel valued.

And I, for a long time at home, I didn't, um, at all. Uh, in fact, I was being told that many occasions that I wasn't, uh, worthwhile. So, Being valued, but also, you know, even if I'm not in the office, I'm at home and not being harsh on myself. And just do things you enjoy as opposed to doing things because you feel as if you have to feel the time.

That's nice. So it's a bit of a theme, isn't it, sort of, you say about being kinder to yourself and you mentioned not having or having those emotional troughs or anything, and maybe that the office helps a bit, but do you have, do you feel you have other outlets for that? Do you have friends you can talk to or anything?

The

kids, well, yeah, I have got a, I've got a friend across the road. I, we, we, we meet every week and we go for a drink. Uh, that's, that's, he's been really big support actually during the breakup. He's been really helpful and supportive. Um, seeing the kids always makes a big difference to how I feel always.

Um, I love spend time with the children. Um, I always have. And they're, they're both essentially young people now and they have their own, their own character and, you know, uh, I do have to say to them sometimes let's put the phone away, um, to try and get them to have a conversation. But, um, But they are, they are, they're good as gold, um, and low spend time on it.

Even if we are, we, we'll do a plan. We'll go out somewhere and it didn't work out, and we'll have a laugh about it, you know,  We'll, you know, we'll, we'll find things to talk about. You've

obviously got a, a close relationship with your children, particularly having been as their own parent. And you talk there about just almost having time where you can chat to them.

But then when I asked you about how they're handling it, there was almost a, you weren't sure. So has it ever been a conversation topic or should it be one? Is

it a necessary for me to have a really analytical conversation to the kids about how they feel? The fact that I'm not there. Okay. Because do I wanna put them on the spot?

I don't, I don't wanna put 'em on the spot. Um, Children while even like, you know, 12 or 16, whatever, they have a lot on their plate. Okay. Without a parent asking them, do you miss me? Right? Um, you know, without asking them. Now, that isn't to say that I'm not scared of having those conversations, but, you know, I don't want to make those conversations unnecessarily heavy for them.

I'd rather them have a positive view of our time together than me being really, really kind of heavy, you know, and psychoanalyzing things. It's not gonna be healthy for me and it's not gonna be healthy for them to, I sense, not healthy for them to, to put them on that spot and having a really emotional conversation with somebody is essentially their.

I'm not their best mates. I mean, I listen to them all the time, but it's not, it's not necessarily for me to prize out the most inner innermost thoughts of feelings. I, I, I like to think that as years go by, when they're, may be in their twenties, we'll talk about it, but I don't want to put them on it now cuz they're still so young.

I love it. Peter, this sounds like excellent parenting to me. I mean, full agreement with all of this. Yeah. Especially that part where you, where you say like, I know so many parents now who want to have this relationship with their children where they are their best friend and I can, well, that's not, it's not really how it, it's supposed to really work.

I know what you're getting at, but it's not, it's, I think that's a healthy

approach. You, you're, you're blowing the boundaries. You aren't blowing the boundaries and it, it's not healthy because then you end up, you. Parents sharing all their worries with children, you know, and that's not, you know, children have their own worries.

You know, children have their own stresses and, and pressures in school with social pressure and friends and exams, and, you know, they have enough of that on their plate without worrying about their parents. My, my job was to protect the children from necessary stress, not add to it by having a, a full exploration of how I feel about it.

How they feel about it. And

an, and an needy parent. An needy parent. Really?

Yes. Well, they were, yes, yes. Cats look

after kittens, not the other way around. That's what my, my grandmother used to say. Not

a perfect parents. And probably one of the ones, I'm not a, a particularly good echo chamber. So, you know, if, if, if, if, if the kids are talking about someone with school, um, Then I sometimes will say, oh, maybe, maybe your friend didn't mean to be offensive.

And maybe it, it wasn't meant to hurt you. Maybe it was just, just not thinking or stuff like that. Trying to encourage them to have a be positive about life as opposed to, oh my God, the life's terrible. So

Nolan, I are asking all these difficult questions and I should add that neither of us have been married.

Neither of us have children and neither of us have been divorced. Have, have we, Noel . Yeah. So we're, we're, we're not, we don't claim to be experts, but, but one of my questions then is the divorce process itself sort of ignoring the, I guess, personal bits that, that may or may not have gone back and forth.

How do you get a divorce? Because, well, actually I was asking one of our mutual friends is today, cuz he has a, well not, not specifically the divorce bit, but when you enter into marriage, people go in. I think with their eyes closed in some senses because they don't consider that the relationship might ever end, which I know would be very pessimistic, but they don't almost understand what it is because we have this mutual friend and he sees it as what it literally is in terms of it being a contract.

And he doesn't like what's written in this contract. I've never bothered to take the time to look into it.

It it is, it is In a way it is when you go into a divorce, cuz it is a bit like a contract, but it's family law. There, there are so many different cases throughout the years of family law that sometimes people describe it as a bit of a lottery and what you get at the end result of a, of a divorce proceeding.

So essentially you're file for divorce, um, you have a claimant and you have a responder. Uh, assuming that they both agree, then they both send the p.

And, and just a sec to interrupt there. You say claimant and respondent, is this about all, because they've changed the law this year in April, didn't they?

It's only just come in that you can have no fault divorce, but until then you've always had to have almost blame on one party, which feels really unhealthy.

The thing about claimant and, and, and responder is really a technical term to who puts the paperwork in. Okay. So someone might make a. , and in our case, we responder.

I agreed. So it's it's not, but in, in, in, in a lot of divorce procedures, it is like that where there's a claimant and there's a responder. Uh, generally the, the, there's a couple of different principles of fairness. Essentially the core principles, fairness, and there's three main parts to it.

I should jump in at this point, Peter, I'm sure you know your stuff and have learned this stuff, but you are not a family, uh, lawyer.

And, uh, anyone, anyone  going through this process should go and seek proper legal advice. ,

I'm just given my understanding of it. Okay. Uh, so there's three principles offenders. There's sharing, there's need and there's, there's comp, compensation. Alright. So in terms of the sharing, what generally happens is you get married as your years go by, you are sharing everything.

So all, everything you gain. In relationship in terms of assets become shared. So even if example, somebody inherits a house, they get married. If you're married for a long period of time, that becomes a marial asset. Everything. So that includes the contents of the house, includes pensions, includes savings, uh, includes everything.

Okay? It in many cases we close business interests. But the, the need part of it is where you've had one partner who might not have worked for many years and as much as they can get a job that's not, for example, they might be be offered the house as part of an agreement, but they can't afford to maintain the house.

So the court looks at me to try and maintain the same level of lifestyle that they're both used to having. The compensation part of it is that, for example, if somebody hasn't worked, one partner hasn't worked for many years, then they've lost out on. They've, they've lost our on stamp duty, um, paying their national insurance contributions.

So lost out all those things for raising children. So that's where the kind of compensation bit comes into it. Um, what's really tricky is the calculation of how they do that. For a short marriage, it's not, so the certain principles is 50 50, but for short marriage, obviously that shifts for inherited wealth.

At a later partner in a relationship, that changes the position as well. Uh, but for generally speaking, it's least 50 50 and that's how it works out. But obviously when you've got fixed assets, how do they split? How do you split it? You know, you know, somebody has to make sacrifices somewhere. And this is one thing people don't realize as you say Chris, is that when you get married, if you go for divorce, the only people benefited divorce lawyers and they are really expensive.

I think people underestimate not just the cost in terms of sharing. Post the part divorce process, but also the legal cost is, is can be astronomical. It can be horrendous. Um, I mean, I think people on low incomes, I mean they're all very scary as well. Very, very scary because solicitors can sometimes be really, really, you know, the letters they can send can be really unpleasant and they can be very threatening.

Um, and with the core process, you don't know what judge you're gonna get. Um, some judges will be more open-minded to the idea of fairness, while some of them may take a very, very procedural approach to it. So it is very nuanced. And this is where listeners come in because they understand the process, they understand the procedures, and they, it is, it is a multiple stage procedure.

There's, there's essentially three hearings involved with a divorce isn't just one. It's complicated and lengthy. Um, and can take time. Is he putting you

off, Chris, at all? ?

Uh, I think I need to, uh, get a girlfriend first, don't I? Start at square one.

Well, as well, Peter has it, has it put you off ever getting married again?

Do you think you would do it again?

It's not, it's not the financial bit. It's put me off. It's just, it's it's the, it it's the, the emotional harm I went through in the relationship that's put me off morning else. I think if, if I, if I was to go out, we had a Christmas do last week, uh, and, and someone said, oh, were there any pretty ladies there?

A friend May said, I. Yeah, but if anybody even expressed an interest, I'd run a mile . I'd be like, no, please , no 

got enough going on. Thank you very much. Well, I, I think that's an impossible question to answer at this stage, isn't it really? I it's hard to have a firm view on that. Even in your circumstances, you just don't know how you're gonna feel about this or that person in x number of

years time.

As long as people go into a marriage with, with an open, with, with fully understanding. You know, it, it, it, obviously it's a relationship first and foremost, and for many years we hadn't had a relationship. But once the kids got older then um, I suppose what I would say is that if you, if you do settle down, get nervous if your wife starts seeing a life coach,

oh yeah.

I dunno. Well, we, we were chatting to one last week actually. So, uh, 

get very nervous if they start to see a life coach.

I've heard this before in terms of not the life coach bit, but when you come together, like when you start your relationship, I guess your paths coincide, if you will. And it's very natural for people to grow up a, grow up different rates, and b, to grow in different directions.

And so for your paths to stay parallel for what's a very long time, really you're going through a lot of life change in terms of you're having children, life happens, job changes. You say circumstances change, becoming a stay at home parent, there's so many things that you just can't predict at the beginning.

No,

no. I, I sometimes sense that I was maybe.  too accommodating. And I'd set this situation at where, um, I'd implied that I would always just go along with anything and everything. And generally I had, um, but it's when I try to object or express an influence and on certain things that for whatever reason, she just could not accept, uh, at all.

And it, it resulted in some harmful behavior. But I would say, I would say hindsight, hindsight's a fantastic thing. I would've, I would've, um, started a hobby. Golf. I just started golf.

Golf, the worst of all hobbies, golf, ,

I don't know, something and stuck at it every weekend, regardless. .

Would you say that though, seriously though?

Did you not really have many hobbies? Were a distraction

for you. I did kung fu for nine years and I did have hobbies, but I think what it was is that I was too accommodating in terms of the home life. The home life in particular. It was just, there was no compromise at all. Uh, really, really wasn't. And she's very determined individual.

Very, very determined. Very, very willful. And it, it, it came to an extreme where I was worried about, what if I object? How is she gonna behave if I object in some way? What was ironic about it is that at one point I had to written Samaritans, that

one, you must have been at a real low then at that point.

Yeah. Apply me.

I was, I was. Four months later, she starts volunteering for them. She starts volunteering

for them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And complained that I didn't show enough interest in her doing Samaritans.

She doesn't know that you've phoned the Samaritans at

this

stage. Oh, I told her. Oh, I told her. Yeah.

Yeah. I told her, she complained to me numerous times that I didn't show enough interest in her doing some housing and said, well, it's spectated for me. She couldn't accept that. Were there help to you at the time? They were, they were. Yeah. They were, they, they, they said there's always a way out. It was, wasn't until year later I moved out actually.

Um, I tried to bear with it. I had some counseling. I tried to recover, but then certain behaviors repeat themselves. Um, and I just, oh, I needed to get away. So I moved, I, I moved into mothers for a little bit just to have a bit of a break. And mar

marriage counseling was never on the table for this breakup.

It was just, well, you did,

we did have marriage counseling and I think it may have been a bit too late and it ended up being disastrous. It was disa absolute disastrous. Um, I think at one point during marriage counsel. She'd said to me that she didn't wanna spend time with me because I didn't excite her.

I didn't have the spark she was looking for. So I think that was kind of like summed up her feelings on the matter.

Yeah. Yeah. Hard to come back from that, isn't it? It's

hard not to forget when, when someone says you're not exciting enough. Of course. And of course, yeah, it was a reminder of what she previously said where she said that I didn't make her feel amazing and fabulous, like other people did it, it, those kind of things.

They, they, they rattle around my head. Uh, less so now, but they still pop up. Yeah.

So if you've been on this process of, as I say, there's almost a positive way and a negative way to deal with, with this life event, and it sounds like you've taken a positive one, has your confidence built as part of that process as well, do you think?

Do you think it's It's on the up. I'm 10

times better than I was. 10 times better than I was. I can't describe the difference how it was, say six months ago. Uh, riddled with tears, changing jobs made a big difference.

I was gonna say, what, what's helped the most then? Has that been the biggest thing? That's

been one of them.

I don't have the pressure of kingdom appearances anymore. Now I look after myself. Now when I go to the office. I'm, I'm, I'm well presented and I, and I, and I make sure that I am, and despite how I look now, I have a shave as well. Um, but the, the pressures dropped, the social pressure's dropped. The pressure to constantly be on the go.

I'm constantly doing something, constantly tidying or cleaning or something gets gone. It's gone. Um, I think the biggest difference will be, is when I have my own place. But I have divorced financial settlement to go through. First of all, before I get there.

I'd met an old friend from school at the weekend.

And she lives in America now. She always has some kind of American phrase. It's usually a little bit annoying perhaps, but the last time I saw her, she was kept saying, it is what it is. She kept saying, it is, it is what it is. That kind of drove me a bit crazy. But anyway, the, the last time I saw it, the weekend, the phrase she kept using a lot when she was talking about relationships was, well, look, it's just you do you and I'll do me.

You're accepting, aren't you? And that reminds me of your relationship a little bit. It just was a case. It was a should have been a, it was just a case of, well, look, you do you, and I'll do me, and let's, let's just go from there. I

had suggested this. I said, look, you could have your interests and I can have mine, and now we find time to spend together.

And what she said was that she wanted somebody who's ex excited about the things that she's excited about. Now, you could read that in a couple different ways. You could read it as being, okay, somebody wants their own way, or maybe a bit entitled, um, Or want somebody who's concerned about socializing as much as she is.

Um, but also just simply not accepting that I'm allowed to have a bit of say in what I do with my time. Uh, she just couldn't accept that. I think, I think the marriages had last the longest have that they have that acceptance. Okay, he's like this and he has his own interest and she's like, this has own interest.

And then they, they, they coincide the meat together every, you know, now and then, but it's something that she simply could not accept at all. Which I seems, it seems like a shame because ideally it would've been better if she looked after me. I looked after her and, and vice versa. But, um, she wanted a, an exciting life.

So you

mentioned, I guess then you've been on this confidence journey and, and it's on the up, but you said sort of you're not, you don't feel you want another relationship at the moment. Do you think that all.  return.

I think it will. Yeah. I have no doubt it will. I suppose I've trust issues now in terms of long-term commitment.

I think without being sounding a bit sexist, but

But buckle up, buckle up. This is, this is gonna be bad. I can sense it

the household thing guys and how that manifests itself and the socializing and, and the keep of appearances I've experienced to, to an end degree and I've too much, it's caused domestic stress. So I am hesitant. I mean, I'm, I, I've certainly been in a relationship, but I've been super, super, super hesitant to live with someone really would if multi saying would never, ever happened.

But I'm super, super hesitant to the idea of getting embroiled with living somebody again because of how things have worked out.

And have you thought ahead. Uh, right now you're living next door to a family home. Has it crossed your mind? What if at some point your wife presumably will be in that situation where she wants another relationship again?

Has that, has that crossed your mind or is that just too far ahead to think about?

I've heard conversations that she suggests that she might be seeing somebody else. It, it has upset me, but I also thinking, well, if she asked me to go back, I'd say no. If she sees Stein somebody else, my view would be, okay, well good luck with it.

But also, she's exceedingly busy person. I don't think she's got time or the efforts. She's just, you know, exceedingly busy person. If she meets somebody who is, who is inclined about appearances, Image as much as she is, then he'll be a dick. Essentially, they're, they're narcissistic. So I suppose as long as there's not too much turbulence for the kids, that would be my, my main

concern.

Oh, Peter, you're saying, I wanna say all the right things. I'm not an expert, but yeah, the important thing really is how are the kids? And I think that's exactly it. And the whole process that you're going through in terms of rebuilding your confidence, finding you, making time to do the things you want to do, which includes sometimes not doing anything at all.

Or, or, or

sometimes I just go to cafe and I read a book. When did you

last do that?

No, the cafe thing happens quite a lot. The book thing, not so much , but

What'd you do in the cafe then?

Probably just, oh yeah, I do. Really, I'm just looking at a, I'm suppose I'm reading news on a phone or something.

If you had one piece of advice for someone else, perhaps going through divorce, Peter, what would it

be?

Look after yourself. Get sleep, and don't be too harsh on yourself either, because there's a lot of guilt that people go through and one of the best, most positive escapes is not the bottle, but the countryside. It's much easier to leave the detri of your life aside for moments if you get away from your normal kind of day-to-day life.

Brilliant. Thank you very much. You're a

lovely, lovely man. You really are . Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah, I, I would echo that

completely. Oh, I thank you. Thank you.

Hey, it's Chris here from Adventure Solos where we help people in their thirties, forties, and fifties to rediscover themselves and meet new people. If you'd like to find out more about Adventure Solos events, visit AdventureSolos.com. That's AdventureSolos.com where you're very welcome to stay in touch by joining the mailing list.

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