EP003 - Dealing with grief & discovering Paganism (with David)

David is a recently widowed pagan minister who works in prisons with offenders. We discuss what is paganism, why was it illegal, and how & when he found his faith, before studying to be a Priest of the Goddess at The Goddess Temple.

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David joined us on the Borwick Hall Weekend by Adventure Solos, you can find details of that event here:
https://www.AdventureSolos.com/borwick -hall-weekend

He is also joining us for a Canoe Scotland event:
https://www.AdventureSolos.com/canoe-scotland-expedition

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Transcript

EP003 – Grief, Paganism, and the Goddess Temple

[00:00:00]  

David: It never gets any easier, but you become better able to cope with it. I still miss her. It's still, you know, every day, it's still awful, but I'm better able to cope. It gets better. No, it doesn't get easier, but it gets better.

Chris: Hey, it's Chris here from Adventure Solos, where we help people in their 30s, to rediscover themselves and meet new people. In this episode, we're talking to David and, well, how to describe David. So Unfortunately, he was relatively recently widowed, and we talk about that a little bit. But David is also a pagan minister that works in the prison service with offenders.

We chat to him about what is paganism, why was it illegal, when and how did he find his faith, and what was it like studying at the goddess [00:01:00] temple. If you'd like to find out more about Adventure Solos events, visit AdventureSolos.com. That's AdventureSolos.com, where you're very welcome to stay in touch by joining the mailing list.

So AdventureSolos.com and enter your details to sign up to the mailing list.

Noel: I've been out all day, so I'm freezing cold. That's why I've got all this. Stuff on because I've just come in and this isn't a heated 

Chris: room We recorded that one with Claire. I think it was a Noel came on and he said oh I rolled a quad bike today, and then he's just sent me a photo like 15 minutes ago of It was the same as your bike.

No, but I don't think it was your bike Was it on the ground? So he's been out on a motorbike. What what's happened? Oh, just 

Noel: one of my friends Always falls off. He's 65 and it's fantastic at falling off. But by that, I mean, when he falls off, he never hurts himself. [00:02:00] And I think he probably just throws his bike off to the side.

And, but yeah, he was fine. But every time you think, no, this is the one where he breaks his arm. But even today he got away with it again. 

Chris: And he was off road though, weren't you? You were doing a bit of green laning or something by looks of it. 

Noel: Yeah, just going down a track here. But it was lovely out today.

Great rainbows. Cause it's just really wild weather here at the moment, but you've got these sunny spells coming in. So I've got this great picture of a rainbow of a grass smear. It looks 

David: gorgeous. Fantastic.

Chris: David welcome anyway. Thank you very much for joining us. Um, And, yeah, it's nice to have you here. I'm excited about this chat, actually, and I know, I'm sure some of it won't necessarily be easy, but I'm really interested. You came on the Boric Hall event, uh, back in November. It was just before my birthday, wasn't it?

I just thought you had a really interesting story. We had a brief chat whilst we're out for for that walk, uh, sort of, uh, on the first [00:03:00] morning, I think, um, about paganism. But yeah, it's something I don't know very much about at all. So really excited to hear about that. And then. You were one of two people also on the event that had been widowed and I think fairly recently was it so yeah If you're happy to chat to us I guess about both these things and I kind of feel that they might tie together as we go through as well Then yeah, it'd be really interesting brilliant.

David: Okay. I'm David Spothforth One time user of adventure solos, but not but it won't be the only time. Yeah, 

Chris: brilliant And so where are you based? 

David: I'm based in London in central London 

Chris: Yeah, perfect. And is that where you're from originally? 

David: No, originally I'm from Liverpool, but, uh, just outside Liverpool. But I've been down here for about 25 

Chris: years now.

Do you mind me asking how old you are, or roughly? In a 

David: few weeks I'll be turning 55. Well, I was just going to say, how do you feel 

Noel: about turning 

David: 55? Oh, [00:04:00] I guess I'm one of those people who thinks, who seems to feel more comfortable in himself the older he gets. I'm more, I've been quite comfortable by getting older.

Was it easier turning 

Noel: 40 or 50? 

David: We'll come back, I think we'll probably need to come back to that question, question about 40, but then, uh, but But I was, I was really comfortable turning 50. A lot of 

Chris: people, you might have been one of them actually, David. Quite a few people said to me not to worry about turning 40 because they said their 40s was one of the best decades and the 50s was the best decade.

Was that you? My 

David: 40s were great. But, you know, I was really happy turning, happy turning 50 too. Yeah, 50 as well, yeah.

Noel: I heard the other day that if you manage to get through between sort of 48 and early 50, say 52, you could, if you're fine health wise between 48 and 52, you're [00:05:00] good for the next 25 

David: years. Sounds good. I mean, what I heard is that when you turn 50, your physical health will be exactly what you deserve.

Chris: So, this maybe brings us on to one of the topics it'd be nice to chat about, which is paganism. So, how long have you been a pagan, or is that how you would describe it? Have you 

David: been a pagan? Yeah, I'd say so. Uh, really since my, uh, late thirties. I was never really much of anything before. I grew up in a household that, uh, called itself Church of England, but, uh, but only the, uh, christenings, marriages and funerals type of, uh, uh, type of churchgoer.

Yeah, so, yeah, I never really followed any particular, uh, followed religion at all for, uh, for the most part. My wife was Christian, and she always thought that there was a spiritual side to me that she wanted to bring out. But, uh, [00:06:00] when it did come out, it wasn't quite as she would have expected. 

Noel: And would you, would you describe her as a practicing Christian?

David: More so as time went on. Uh, the, uh, she wasn't much of a church goer, but she did start going to church more regularly towards the end of her life. Yeah. So how 

Chris: did the paganism side sort of come through? Like, I guess it'd be really interesting to hear, I mean, let's start at square one. What, what is paganism and, and how did it sort of come into your life?

Okay, well 

David: paganism, I think the Pagan Federation describe it as a nature, any nature based polytheistic, uh, spirituality. 

Chris: Okay, you've got me there. What's polytheistic? 

David: Moving in multiple gods and goddesses. Ah, cool. 

Chris: So any nature based, polytheistic, which, sorry, I'm probably butchering that, but, but many gods, um, and what was, was there another bit [00:07:00] to it?

David: No, not really. That's, that's really the, uh, the basics of it. It's, uh, so we have multiple gods and goddesses, like they used to be back in the pre Christian days, and those gods and goddesses tended to be, um, ones that were based within nature. As in, uh, you know, gods of the haunt, goddesses of the harvest, um, you know, gods of thunder, you might say, or right to the heart of the matter, you could even say mother nature.

And, and 

Chris: did you mention, I thought when we were having that chat, you said it was, well, is it, is it? Christianity? Is it a form of Christianity or not? Are they completely separate? 

David: No, it isn't. The, uh, you know, it's, it's from before, essentially it's from before Christianity, um, because, of course, the essence of Christianity is, is you've got the one God.

We don't go along with [00:08:00] that. We like to have lots, the more the merrier. 

Noel: Well, I was going to say, is there much documented sort of history as far as paganism goes? Has there been much written down over the decades, over the centuries 

David: rather? Ooh, now there's a thing, and it can be quite a sore point. But, uh, it depends on, it depends on the particular, on the particular religion.

You've got some pagan faiths, particularly across Europe and, uh, Uh, Europe and North Africa, like Egyptian, Greek, Roman, uh, paganism, uh, where, where you get quite a lot written down, uh, lots of, uh, document, documented history, uh, particularly Roman. The problem we've got in this country, uh, with, uh, with Celtic based paganism is that Celts never had a written language.

There was lots of oral tradition, uh, some of which has been written [00:09:00] down over the centuries, but mostly, uh, mostly by Christians. So you have to kind of read between the lines. So, a lot of what the old pagan stories were and old pagan practices is very sketchy, and you've, and this had to be sort of reinvented over the years.

You know, when paganism came back in a big way in the 1950s with the advent of Wicca, A lot had to be re invented, or re rediscovered. What do you mean by the advent of Wicca? In 1951, the Witchcraft Act was finally repealed in this country. And what had been underground movements Uh, were able to come above ground.

Chris: Sorry. Witchcraft act was repealed. So people were, what did that let people do? There 

David: was a law [00:10:00] which, uh, was mostly about, uh, mo, mostly about fraudulent spiritualists. For example, com, com artists, uh, by the end, uh, which. was basically, anybody who claimed to be a witch was basically, it was basically illegal.

Now that was stricken from the record books in 1951, and so it became legal to be, and to call yourself a witch. A chap by the name of Gerald Gardner, who had been involved in various occult movements in the early 20th century, was able to come out into the open and, uh, as, as a witch and started, founded a movement called Wicca, which was the, the first real public, uh, pagan movement of the 20th century.

Chris: So paganism had obviously been around thousands of years ago, as you say, sort [00:11:00] of pre, pre Christ or whatever, and then it's been underground for presumably hundreds, if not thousands of years before being sort of resurrected, if you will, um, in the last century. 

David: It's very hard to say where, uh, what it was doing in the intervening period.

But, uh, I think really from sort of records that have been traced back, it's probably really around the 17th century that you can start seeing, seeing it, uh, glimmers of it starting to come back into action. Cool. 

Chris: So how did then, how's it come into your life in your late thirties? 

David: Well, I was down in Glastonbury.

My wife was a, who was a jazz pianist, was playing a gig down there. 

Chris: Not, not at Glastonbury, the festival then? No, 

David: no, but she was playing a gig there and I went down with her, as I sometimes did. And, uh, and while she was, uh, you know, practicing with [00:12:00] the band, I, uh, I was out and about. And I went to a place called the Chalice Well in Glastonbury, which is an, uh, a natural spring.

That's been running for, uh, thousands of years. It's one of those sort of healing waters. It's a beautiful garden, and sitting in there, I just felt just a wonderful spiritual energy in there. And I thought, hang on a minute, this feels nice. I should look, I should think about what is this? It felt like an, uh, it felt like a mother energy.

Felt very comfortable mothering. And then in the town, I found the goddess temple. in Glastonbury and thought, and thought I like the look of this and started picking up leaflets and picked up the, started reading a book and it [00:13:00] talked about a training course that they run for the, uh, to be an, uh, a priest of the goddess and I figured I'll read the book.

If it gels with me, I'll, uh, sign up and try and do it. 

Noel: And what was your wife's initial 

David: reaction to all of this? Well, like I say, she always thought there was something spiritual in me, but it didn't, but, uh, she wasn't expecting it to come out in that way. So was she happy 

Noel: for it to arrive in any form in the end?

David: She, let's just say she put up with it. 

Chris: So I presume it, things did resonate with you, and maybe if there's anything in particular, but, but you said then about studying to, was it at or to become a priest of the goddess? 

David: Uh, it was studying to become a priest of the goddess and it was at the goddess temple.

And it was one of those courses where, you know, people sign up to it, almost to see if it works, and then, uh, often, and often will drop out. You know, in the first, the first year, there were 22 [00:14:00] people on the course. By the end of the, uh, first year, we were down to 12. People were coming in, trying it, finding it, and I would either find, yes, this works, or no, this isn't for me, and would drop out.

Me, it just kept working, and I stayed through the whole three years of the course. What was this 

Noel: leading to for you? What was the end goal for you, doing 

David: this? The end of it all coincided with, uh, with being offered redundancy where I worked. I was working in the public sector at the time when they, uh, uh, when they were doing, offering lots of voluntary redundancies.

And I thought, okay, I'm just, I am now qualified as a priest. Um, I want to sort of be able to, uh, practice this. And now I'm getting offered a redundancy in my day job. So I've, so I might, I could take a chance, take the redundancy, and, uh, [00:15:00] and see if I can perhaps make a, make a living out of, uh, Doing my priest work.

Chris: So, so what was your job the one that you where there was a redundancies? I'm just wondering what sort of transition it was from from whatever your day job was to becoming a priest of the goddess 

David: Well, most of my career. I was a graphic designer within within publishing departments within governments 

Chris: So, how did you find that transition or was it transition or not?

David: It was a very comfortable transition It felt like I was Sort of leaving one world behind and, and entering a new one. And this is, sort of brings us back to what we were talking about before because, uh, during this period is when I turned 40. So, uh, I sort of called my, uh, my training as a priest and, uh, moving into that new world was my midlife crisis.

And so 

Chris: did you say you did feel quite comfortable during the 40s or, or when you turned 40, should I say? Oh 

David: yeah, very much [00:16:00] so. I mean, it was a, it was a very positive transition. Yeah, 

Chris: brilliant. So you became a priest of the goddess. You went full time with that. Is that, is that what you're still doing? 

David: It is.

I started out by, uh, uh, by doing some work as in work, uh, doing funerals. The, uh, I trained as a funeral celebrant. So being the person who stands up in the front of the, uh, family and sort of delivers the funeral service. It was something I felt as if I could do, and that was going okay in a small way. It wasn't building up very quickly, but it was doing okay.

But then I saw an advert, um, looking, that the prison service was looking for pagan chaplains to work in prisons, and I applied for that ten years ago this month, and I've been doing that ever since. It's my tenth anniversary this month. 

Noel: What do you think had led the [00:17:00] prison service into seeking someone out to do that?

Was that something quite new to the prison service at that point, do you think? 

David: Not very new, no. Pagan chaplains in the prison services since the mid 90s, but it's part of what the prison service Does for people who are inside is is that you know, they left them in England and Wales anyway Whatever religion you are, they will let you carry on practicing that faith You know, it's because it's quite right.

It's a very important part of Of a person's, uh, journey and it leads to rehabilitation and, uh, uh, in many ways. 

Noel: So are people, lots of people in prison very surprised to hear that there's a pagan minister on 

David: offer to them? Oh yes, I was very surprised. The, uh, I'm very, I'm very pleased to hear, very pleased to see it.

Anybody [00:18:00] who goes into, who goes into prison, uh, if they declare what their faith is, Uh, the prison service will do their best to provide a chaplain of that faith. 

Chris: So, so that must be quite interesting work, perhaps challenging, rewarding. How, how's that been? 

David: Yep, challenging, rewarding, all of the above. 

Noel: Are you working with men and women at all?

David: Yes, yeah, both, because when you're a minority faith chaplain, you tend not to be based in one, in one prison. You tend to sort of, uh, go do a few hours here, a few hours there, and sort of go around all the prisons in the area, right, doing, you know, seeing, um, doing classes every day in each prison. And 

is 

Noel: it a sort of a one to one 

David: meeting usually?

It can be if it's, if there's only one person there and we'll end up doing lots of one to one work, pastoral [00:19:00] work. But for the most part actually, you have groups, you know, well groups, not big groups necessarily, but groups. 

Chris: Do you ever get people come in and sort of confessing stuff to you or anything like that?

Or is it just not working like that 

David: at all? Doesn't really work like that. We tend not to. It's more about, uh, where they, where they are and looking to the future. 

Chris: Yeah. And that's what I guess I thought in a way it'd almost be part of their journey. If maybe sometimes it starts with, uh, I did this or I was like this.

I'm now here and this is where I want to be kind of thing. Um, but yeah, you're more on the present and future. Yeah. And I guess then if you've been, if you've been doing this work for 10 years, have you seen people sort of change through their, I guess, you know, faith or beliefs or from where they're trying to get to?

David: Yes, very much so. It's the importance I see of having an active chaplaincy [00:20:00] in the prison service because people do change. People might come in without having any kind of faith and discover a faith while they're inside, and it helps give them a strength. It doesn't really matter what that faith is, but if they find a faith, Does that happen a 

Noel: lot to people, do you think, in prison?

David: There's a 

Noel: lot of time to think, 

David: isn't there, I suppose? 

Chris: I listened to a really interesting podcast a few months back, um, about, it was a guy, I think his name was Jacob. I might be wrong. I want to say Jacob Dunn, but I could be mistaken. But he'd, he'd basically been sort of, I guess, scrappy, if you will. He'd had fights and stuff when he was younger.

Uh, and One of his friends got in a fight and he punched this guy that he was fighting. He kind of ran down the street to the pub or whatever and punched this guy, um, and, and kind of the person that he [00:21:00] punched ended up dying. And so this guy then went to prison, but he'd been through the restorative justice process, which was what most of the podcast was about.

So that was really interesting about how it was the parents of the, the boy that had punched or the lad that had punched that wanted to engage in this for, for sort of their sake. Um, but yeah, he found it got a lot out of it and I guess in some ways, I'm sure in some ways it's different, but in some ways, maybe it's similar as well.

Yes, 

David: and I've seen, I've seen people go through the, people I've been working with restorative justice program as well, and, uh, it's very successful and very rewarding. 

Chris: Is there a lot of it in prisons, or in the UK at least? 

David: As much of it as they can. It's one of those, it's one of those things where Well, they do it as often as funding will allow, as with anything these days, money is tight.

Chris: Yeah, and I'm sure money's tight, [00:22:00] but it just feels like the sort of right thing to do in the same way, like, I think the NHS is under pressure and sometimes that, I think, is because we're reacting to problems rather than necessarily dealing with them. Like, you're given drugs to deal with symptoms rather than to tackle root cause and, I guess, lifestyles.

All this sort of stuff and I suspect that there's a similar thing happening in prisons, isn't it? Like We're punishing people or locking them up or whatever and they're serving their time But what are we actually doing in the long term to get rid of that? I don't know maybe that's maybe I mean it probably all comes back to politics and maybe it's the The problem with short termism like people are just looking at the next five years and not the next 20 or 30 years Isn't 

David: it?

We just do the best we we just do the best we can in this, you know with the resources we've got in the in the system In the 

Noel: 10 years you've been doing it, David, have you seen the prison population change much in either its demographic or, or just the people that are finding themselves in 

David: prison? I don't think I [00:23:00] really have seen a great, seen a great shift.

Looking, looking back, I think I'm seeing the same, I'm certainly seeing the same sort of numbers. 

Noel: Yeah. And is it frustrating seeing people come in because of the same sort of social circumstances? 

David: Yes, absolutely. It's never nice to see somebody, uh, to see somebody come back in after they've gone out. It's nice to see them, you know, if I've worked with them before, but it's always, it's nice to see you but not in these 

Chris: circumstances.

Are you still in touch with anyone that's come out of prison and is still practicing and is kind of, like, are you in touch with the, if you will, success stories? 

David: Honestly, wish I could, but unfortunately that's, uh, that's not allowed. No news is good news. Yes. If I don't hear from them again, that means they're doing well.

Yeah, 

Chris: if you've done your part of the job right, then, uh, yeah, you don't hear from them again. 

Noel: And so is this your full time occupation? Are you doing funerals [00:24:00] at all 

David: anymore? Uh, no, that kind of dropped away. It was like I was doing funerals and prison work at the start, and then as the prison work went up, it sort of took, it ended up taking over all of my time.

And, uh, um, and so whilst, uh, I'd be very happy to get the occasional, uh, few bit of fu bit of funeral work, um, now I'm not sort of promoting that side of my work anymore. 

Noel: I just wondered if there's any, you know, recently there was, you made the news that in the census, in some census results, I think it was the census result, the number of people that declared themselves as non-religious or certainly weren't prescribing to Church of England anymore are, are there ma any statistics on the amount of people practicing paganism or officially.

David: Oh, there is, yes. The, uh, um, and it's very encouraging it is, too, but, um, still, unfortunately, only down as other, and then you write in what you are, but if you, uh, but [00:25:00] looking back at the 2001 census, you had 40, 000 people registering as, as a form of pagan, pagan religion. That went up to 80, 000 in, uh, 2011, 2011.

And in the latest census, it's, uh, 137,000. So it's, uh, it's heading upwards as a fast rate. Uh, however, I have my suspicion that, uh, a lot of that isn't necessarily new Pagans. It's more, it's a lot of, uh, people who weren't willing to, uh, uh, be open about it. who are now more comfortable with us. And 

Noel: open about it, or do you think even, maybe perhaps just giving it a name even, perhaps?

Perhaps, I wonder if there are people that are pagans and don't realize it? 

David: Yeah, that too, I 

Chris: suppose, yes. When you [00:26:00] say, sort of, prepare to be open about it, do you feel that, do you feel that you or the pagans are judged in some way? Or, or why would people be shy about it? 

David: Well, put it, put it this way, um, I've, I was once asked by an, uh, uh, a Christian volunteer in the, in the service, uh, what's, what's our relationships like now between Christians and pagans?

And I said, it's better since you stopped burning us. There's a lot of, there's, there's always been a bit of an, uh, a bit of a stigma attached to saying you're pagan, uh, the, uh. Um, people, you know, people have been getting, uh, worried about it, uh, people who don't understand, you know, might accuse you of being like Satanist or devil worshipper, which is rubbish because we don't actually [00:27:00] have any sort of, uh, devils in paganism.

People worry about, you know, being discriminated against. More and more I think people are more aware. Of paganism and, uh, more in the mainstream than it ever has been before. 

Chris: Yeah, and I have to say, I mean, that's part of the reason for having you on, is I, I knew nothing about it, um, so yeah, I just didn't know what it meant really at all, so it's interesting to hear a little bit about it.

Oh, you mentioned some of what they believe in is the, the sort of, it's all based in nature, and I guess that probably ties back to life cycles and things, and obviously also, is that right? 

David: It does. Cycles is very much, is a big part of it, whether it's following the patterns of the moon cycle or the cycle of the, cycle of the year and seasons or the seasons of your own life, [00:28:00] the transitions you go through as you, as you, as you age.

Chris: And that probably brings us on to a little bit. Is it just within the last 12 months that unfortunately your wife has passed away? 

David: It was about seven months ago now. Yeah. Yeah. 

Chris: I'm really sorry to hear that. Um, so maybe could you tell us if you're comfortable a little bit about I guess if You know, presumably she was ill for a while, and maybe, you know, if you've been practicing paganism for, what, 15 years or so, so maybe as that part of, as that part of the paganism side has come into your life, your wife has started to, to become unwell, 

David: has she?

Well, it was about five years ago that she began to, uh, she began to sort of develop, uh, symptoms of Parkinson's. And, uh, slow and slowly, uh, developed a form of dementia as well. And, uh, around the time [00:29:00] when COVID started, the time we entered lockdown, uh, I was having to become a full time carer. And, uh, yeah, so, it's, uh, even if, um, even if there hadn't been a lockdown, I would have had to have taken a career break then anyway.

Chris: And is that what ended up happening then? You, you had a career break for, whilst you were 

David: caring for her? Yeah, became a full time carer. And, uh, yeah, and, uh, you know, and as her, uh, illness took, took its course and took its course and, uh, last summer, uh, you know, she had a fall and, uh, broke a hip and, uh, well, she had surgery for it, but didn't recover from the operation.

Chris: Oh, yeah. Had you been together for a long time? 

David: Uh, 22 

Chris: years. Yeah, because I think a lot of people, you know, when you say sort of widowed, [00:30:00] people think, or probably in my mind, as much as anything, you think of people that are sort of far older, but actually, you know, I don't think it's really that uncommon for people to lose You know, their other half in their thirties, forties, fifties, or younger.

This is true, 

David: yes. 

Chris: So, so how's life been? I guess, obviously, you've had the challenge of, um, sort of losing your wife, but then I guess you've been back to work. So how's, how's all this been? Uh, 

David: going back to work has been quite, has been quite straightforward. Um, I guess I'm lucky in that, um, there aren't many pagan chaplains around in the system.

And, uh, and, you know, when I, um, put the word out that I was wanting to go back to work, um, my old, uh, uh, a lot of my old prisons, uh, said, yes, we still want you back. They [00:31:00] hadn't, they hadn't replaced me in the meantime. And even a couple of new ones that I hadn't been in before, uh, wanted me to start going in.

Noel: I mean, you have to forgive my ignorance here, David, but what are the pagan beliefs around death? 

David: Or about what happens after death? Well, I think we all, we all vary. Uh, paganism tends to be, uh, tends to be a fairly, uh, individual, individual thing. Certainly a common belief within paganism is, uh, some form of reincarnation.

It's based on the principle, you know, you look at the moon in the sky, it, uh, it shrinks down to nothing, sort of dies in there and then is reborn a day or two later. Uh, in the winter we see all the trees and plant life effectively die off and then bloom again in the, uh, in the spring. And, uh, we see no reason why our own, uh, spirits and souls shouldn't, uh, shouldn't do.

Likewise. [00:32:00] Uh, so I see it as an, uh, you know, when we die, our, our souls go off to a form of af afterlife where we rest and heal. and then get reborn. 

Chris: Has that helped you during the last year? 

David: Oh, yes. And, uh, oddly enough, um, my wife practiced a form of, uh, Christianity, which all, which included a form of reincarnation as well.

And so, uh, so I know exactly what she's up to. I know, I know that she's. Perfectly happy and, uh, having a good rest and recovery wherever she is, and, uh, catching up with family and friends, and, uh, and browsing through a reincarnation catalogue, waiting, looking for her to come around. 

Noel: So, I mean, do you mind me asking, so did she have a Christian burial, or was she cremated, or how did that 

David: work?

Oh, she insisted she wanted to be buried. [00:33:00] Uh, that was something she was always absolutely. Uh, in a churchyard. Uh, no, actually we, uh, uh, we buried her in, uh, natural burial 

Chris: ground. Oh, nice. There was a guy that came on one of our events. It was the West Highland Way event in the summer, and he was working in one of those natural, uh, burial grounds.

Yeah. Somewhere down south. What is it? 

Noel: Is it sort of some woodland or is it, what's the, what's the lie of that 

David: land? It is, uh, it's, uh, it's not very woodland. The one that's, the one that she's in in Guilford isn't, uh, isn't very woodland yet, but it's very sort of wild land and it's all growing nicely. I, I visited, I visited it yesterday and uh, the grass is starting to, uh, cover over her plot very 

Chris: nicely.

Have you, are you in touch with anyone else that has been. I don't know if you'd use the term yourself, but has been widowed? 

David: Uh, yes, uh, I did a course [00:34:00] called Living with Loss, uh, in, uh, in the autumn, uh, that was run by the charity Age Exchange that, uh, that did a lot of work with my wife, uh, help supporting her when she was ill.

Uh, and they got in touch with me and said they were running this 10 week course and, uh, would I like to join in with? There was about, there was about half a dozen of us on the course, all that. recent, uh, widows and widowers and we could just explore the issues about coping, you know, all together. So, yeah.

Noel: Well, I was going to say you had time, I mean, it's a terrible thing, isn't it? But you had time to see this coming in a way, didn't 

David: you? Yeah, yeah. And 

Noel: so at the end of it. Has it been, how's it been different to how you might have imagined it would be, 

David: life without her? It's always, no matter how much you prepare for it, it's always, it always is a bit of a shock.

You know, you always think, well, there's a bit more time. But yeah, I guess [00:35:00] because she had dementia as well, I was sort of, the grieving period, I was losing her for quite, for a couple of, slowly over a couple of years. So. It's an, uh, so it was a long build up. 

Noel: I was going to say, was the course of any value to you?

Did 

David: that help? Yeah, it did. It was nice to be able to share with, share experiences with people who understand. 

Chris: Are you still in touch with any of those people now that the course has finished? 

David: Well, it's funny you should say that, but, uh, I don't know whether you, you hear the odd little notification ping.

It's an active group. And one of them. was a little reminder email from, uh, from someone saying, uh, from the group saying, uh, you know, we're still meeting up next week for an, uh, for a tea. 

Chris: So how are you feeling? I mean, you know, you must, you know, a grieving process, I [00:36:00] guess, never ends. And in a way you're at a relatively early stage of that.

How do you feel, I guess, now and how you've. Sort of how far you've come so far and what the future looks like. 

David: Uh, there's been a lot of ups and downs in many, I tried to, uh, I was doing a lot in my first few months, um, trying to, uh, go out a lot, building, rebuilding a social life, uh, getting active, trying lots of new things, going on adventure solos weekends.

And, uh, and, uh, uh, and it did get to a point, um, near, uh, As we got nearer to Christmas, where I was, I was reminding myself, I'm not 30 anymore. I need to slow down a 

Noel: bit. What brought you to that conclusion? What were you doing that made you think you had to slow 

David: down? Uh, knocking my shoulder out of place.

Having a [00:37:00] bad landing after trying paragliding. 

Chris: Alright, that would do it. Oh, did you? How was paragliding? 

David: Well, I managed to get a flight. And I was flying okay, but my landing is pretty 

Chris: rubbish. Yeah, so I, this is nearly 20 years ago now, but I did a, um, what they call the static line parachute jump. So you jump out of the plane by yourself, but you don't freefall for very long.

Basically you've got a rope attached to the plane and after like 20 meters, your chute comes out and you've got to have some training in case it doesn't come out right. And you have to release your emergency one or mine was a little bit twisted, so you just have to kick your legs a bit to untwist it.

But yeah, they, they taught us, we were told to fall when we were hitting the ground. They kind of said, well, obviously hitting the ground is a dangerous moment. Um, uh, but yeah, we were told to roll, but I, as I came in, I did, I was quite proud of myself, actually. Um, I just managed to break at the right time and I was like, I'm fine.

I can just walk this through, but yeah. So you had a bit of an awkward [00:38:00] landing doing your paraglide, did you? 

David: Yeah. 

Noel: Is this, is this so doing it solo, you got to this stage, right? Wow. 

David: Yeah, it was, yes. You get, even on your first day of training doing paragliding, you get to do a solo flight. Not very high and not very far, but not very long, but you do get up there.

Have you given this 

Noel: up or are you pursuing it? 

David: I booked for two, for two days, two classes. And my second day got cancelled because of bad weather and I haven't booked a second date yet. What I will do, uh, but it, but it might be it, uh, uh, paragliding classes aren't cheap and I had to really be able to, had to really make a choice as to whether to carry on doing more paragliding or whether to do the Adventure Solos Canoe Scotland.

Noel: I was just going to say what did you do with Chris? So he took you down that horrible windy lake. Ha 

Chris: ha 

David: ha ha 

Chris: ha. [00:39:00] Are you on about Loch Ness? You're going 

Noel: to tell me, you're going to tell me that's good because you use a sail, aren't you? 

Chris: Oh, it's brilliant when we get the sails out, it's so much fun. But David's got this to look forward to.

You, you've just put everybody off, that's people's favourite event and mine. I 

Noel: think it's because I always, I always imagine a worst case scenario that you, that you come out of the canal or the river. So is it a river at one end or it's a canal at both ends, isn't 

Chris: it? Well, it's, uh, the whole thing is a canal, but, but basically what it's doing, there's three big locks along the way, including Loch Ness is the biggest one.

There's Loch Oick and Loch Lockie, which is a brilliant name, but the canal, the man made little bits of canal join those three locks up along the route. 

Noel: I just said, whenever I've driven past Loch Ness, it just always looks horrifically windy, so I always assume that it must be awful, but then you're never against the wind, presumably.

You're always doing it in the direction of the 

Chris: wind, aren't you? Yeah, we do it in a direction of wind. So generally it's from just outside Fort William and we head to the [00:40:00] northeast and that's the direction of prevailing wind. But if the wind is ever the other way, then we generally switch it around. So we've done that a couple of times where we just stick everyone in a mini bus, get the trailer and start at the other end instead.

Noel: Yeah, change my mind. It sounds fantastic. 

Chris: But you've not done that yet, have you David? So, uh, I don't want to be scaring you either. 

David: No, I'm looking forward to it. It's going to be, going to be a great time because, uh, it's, it's going to form part of a big two week holiday for me because I've got the first, the first week in Scotland and then I go, I'll be going from there straight down to, uh, Glastonbury for the, uh, for the 2023, uh, goddess conference there, so.

Oh wow, 

Chris: what happens there then? 

David: Ah, it's where all the, uh, various priests and priestesses and, uh, all, all get together for a week of, uh, workshops and johnity. Yeah, 

Chris: sounds good. I, I presume you, you drink [00:41:00] within, you know, there's nothing, yeah, you drink alcohol do 

David: you? I do accept the, uh, accept the problem of being a full time carer for a couple of years during lockdown is because I've become a complete lightweight.

Oh, me too. Yeah. One glass of wine and I'm gone. 

Chris: Oh, I'm, I'm in the same camp as you there, David. Like one glass of wine and Yeah. I'm tipsy and I, I can't finish a second. 

David: Yeah. Doing stupid things like, uh, winning games of, uh, cards against Humanity.

Chris: Yeah, so the event that David did come on, Noel, was, uh, the Boricore weekend. So, uh, I guess a similar format. Noel's coming on one next month, actually. Dern Valley, uh, down near Sheffield. So Dern Valley weekend. Um, so that's going to be his first foray into an Adventure Solos event. How are you feeling about it, Noel?

I 

Noel: haven't even looked. Well, I haven't even looked at it. I don't even know what I'm doing. Why do I think it [00:42:00] involves swinging around in trees or something? I must have seen a picture. 

Chris: Um, there's a few things going on. In fact, I've got the schedule here. Um, There's a bit that's not advertised. You'll like it.

Well, I say you'll like 

Noel: this. My biggest issue with it is is that I haven't really yet told my basically wife That i'm going on some kind of solos 

Chris: weekend Yeah, but it's not like that. People come on and they're in relationships. 

Noel: I'm using, I'm going to use this podcast to break the news to her. 

Chris: Well, the solos thing, Ashley, if you're listening, it's not a relationship status thing.

It's just people booking on by themselves. Thank 

Noel: you. Yes. That's exactly what I tried 

Chris: to tell her. People do come along that, uh, married or in a relationship and they, their other half just doesn't want to do it or was busy or whatever. And so. So yeah, that's the dynamic is meant to be that people just book on by themselves.

And then there's a group of people there that we have a bit of a laugh with, hopefully. [00:43:00] Perfect. Perfect. So these aren't even on the, some of these are in like, we're doing a bit of abseiling, a zip wire, there's some high ropes, you say something called. Aeroball, there's a laser tag, but this isn't on the schedule, but we're going to be doing it as a boogie build.

So I don't know exactly how this works. I think we split into two teams And I think they have some stuff there. Like a soapbox build. I think it's maybe halfway between scrapheap challenge and uh, Yeah, soapbox racing. Uh, 

Noel: that's good. So there's some heights. I was going to say about your paragliding, David.

Are you okay with heights then? Are you? 

David: Oh, yeah, I love heights. 

Noel: You knew that you knew that going 

David: into it? Yeah. No, I've got no problem with heights. I love it. My, uh, younger brother is absolutely terrified of them. So I get, so, I, so I get to scare him silly. I think 

Noel: I am a bit scared of heights, but I know that I also, it's something you can get used to, can't you, quite quickly, I think.

I've worked on scaffolding quite a lot. And at first when I'm on top of scaffolding, it's scary as anything. And then [00:44:00] after a few days, you feel absolutely fine about it. And 

David: that's just scaffolding. My problem would be the other end. I'd be terrified going down a pothole. 

Chris: So I guess just maybe wrapping things up a little bit, but you mentioned before sort of coming along with a BORIC whole weekend and you were doing the course that what was it learning to live with loss or whatever at the same time?

It sounded like almost you just wanted to be really busy, partly to rebuild, I guess, networks and things like that and, and the social thing, but were you just trying to keep occupied perhaps and, and Adventure Solos, that, that weekend was maybe a part of that? 

David: It was, it was an, uh, I guess part of it, trying to, um, live life as an, uh, as, as a solo.

So, with so many things being geared to, uh, uh, geared to couples these days, I want to, I wanted to go on a little, a little [00:45:00] holiday, a little break, um, that I could go to by myself, but I still wanted to be social. You know, I still wanted to be around, around people and, uh, do things with people, but, uh, didn't want to be around couples.

Chris: Yeah, I like being around people. 

Noel: And I hate being around couples, so this weekend 

Chris: sounds perfect for me. If you had one piece of advice for someone, David, maybe that's going through a grieving process, what would it be? 

David: I would say, get out, throw yourself into life, uh, be around people, do things new, do things, do something you've never done before.

But, uh, for goodness sake, pace yourself. 

Chris: Oh, brilliant. And, and I guess, you know, you believe, uh, and your wife believe in reincarnation, so I guess, [00:46:00] is, is she aware of what you're doing and how you're coping and watching you? Or does it not work like that? I think 

David: she, she is. Um, one other thing I'm doing at the moment is a spiritual healing course.

And, uh, when I do the work, uh, when I'm working with people, doing a, doing a healing with them. Um, because my wife was a trained healer as well. She always turns up when I'm doing it. I always feel her there, feel her presence. Yeah, so yeah, I also, so I see her quite often. Would she 

Chris: have done any of the activities that you're doing?

Would she have, I don't know, come on the weekend or jumped out of a, well, doing a para, para, is it parasailing? Paragliding? 

David: No, I really think she wouldn't have. 

Chris: Would she have let you do it? 

David: Probably 

Chris: not. Well, funny enough, in a way, you know, we were talking to a guy called Peter recently and he was saying the same thing, kind of getting a bit of time back to yourself and doing [00:47:00] what you want to do is the healthiest thing you can do when you find yourself in that situation.

So, yeah, brilliant. And I sort of just want to ask, like, are you doing okay? 

David: Ah, getting there. It's a slow process. One of the things that we've and We think in the Living With Loss group is it never gets any easier, but it you become better able to cope with it. So I still I still miss her. It's still, you know, it's not every day.

It's still awful. But they are bots. I'm better able, better able to cope and just, um, you know, and I'm nowhere near the end of the process yet, but every day I'm trying something, trying something and, uh, you know, getting through the day and, uh, You know and [00:48:00] every so often find new ways to new ways of living to uh to help it gets better No, it doesn't get easier, but it gets better.

Chris: Yeah, that's a nice way of putting it Yeah, it must be it must be tricky just on so many levels that you almost don't think about like, you know Knowing anyone close to you has died can be as you say such a shock for you know, even as you say if you're expecting it, but then you just think as you say almost the the companion stuff and things that you lose along the way and just, I, you know, living with other people and whatever.

Yeah, 

David: I miss, I miss having someone to hold hands with. 

Chris: Yeah, well, that's sweet. And at least you did hold hands. I'm sure a lot of couples don't, but at least you had that. Well, thank you. Um, I, I feel like we've just skimmed the surface really, but, um, I guess just getting the message out there and chatting about it.

Like, you know, I'm sure there's lots of other people that have been widowed and know people that have been widowed when, you know, at a relatively young age. Um, [00:49:00] so thank you for talking to us about that and for giving us a bit of an insight to, uh, paganism as well. Oh, it's my pleasure. All right. Thank you very much, David.

And we'll catch up, um, in the summer, if not before on the, on Noel's favorite 

David: event. And enjoy your weekend, Noel. Thank you. I hope 

Noel: I'll survive. Nice to meet you, David.