EP010 - Leaving London: Pros, cons, and how I knew when it was the right time for me (with Gemma)

Gemma lived in London for around 15 years. She was torn between staying in her current job, career and home versus being closer to family and living a slower pace of life. In this relatable episode, she talks us through the decisions and circumstances that lead to her deciding when was the right time, and talks us through the pros and cons of a first year away out of city life.

Gemma has attended the Windermere Weekend by Adventure Solos and the Yorkshire 3 Peaks Weekend.

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This is the Jim Carrey 'Enough' clip we reference in the episode:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/GubP-0agK7I?si=Xe3SoHDZQq96NAyu

You can find details of Adventure Solos events here:
https://www.AdventureSolos.com/adventures

Gemma joined us for the Yorkshire 3 Peaks Weekend
https://www.AdventureSolos.com/yorkshire-3-peaks-weekend

Chris is always banging on about Gusto meal boxes! You can get a discount on your boxes using this link here (full disclosure - Chris gets a Gusto credit if you use this link too):
https://cook.gousto.co.uk/raf/?promo_code=CHRIS43613799&utm_source=iosapp

To find out more about Adventure Solos events, including joining the mailing list, visit:
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Transcript

Gemma: [00:00:00] Do I wish I'd done it sooner? Yes and no, but I think I needed to, I was still in love with London, I needed to fall out of love with it. It's a very difficult place to leave. I just started asking myself the question of what would have made me happier today? And That was when I started to realize that, you know, like, could I have been happier today?

And if so, what would it have been that made me happier? And that's when I started to realize that, well, I'd have been happier if I'd have had time to go for a walk or if I'd had time to actually stop and cook dinner or, and those were the sorts of things that made me start to realize for real that, you know, I needed to have a slower pace for where I was.

That's in my life at the time.

Nat: Hi, I'm co host Nat, and this week we speak to Chris's sister about her journey through life and her particularly big life changing decision [00:01:00] to leave London and seek a different lifestyle in the countryside. We explore several themes. How much our environment affects us and our happiness. How big cities like London can be lonely.

How stress and anxiety can affect how we feel and who we are. How life changes through phases of our life. We also discuss her finding a new work life balance to become the person she wants to be and finding a new community in the countryside. And if that's not enough, Chris tries to persuade me he's a nice guy and accuses me of going on swingers cruises.

If you'd like to learn more about Adventure Solos events, please visit AdventureSolos.com and enter your details to sign up to the mailing list.

Chris: Well, you know what I'm Chris. Nat, hopefully people have listened to a few of our episodes now. And so this is my sister Gemma, and I've got two sisters, so this is my little one. [00:02:00] And Gemma, you have been on the Windermere Weekend event. I think that's the only one you've been on so far. Was that kind of 18 months ago?

Gemma: Part of the three peaks, but Didn't quite get all the way around and stopped to help mum with the beverages instead. 

Chris: That's a good point. So, on the Yorkshire Three Peaks event I rope my mum in who kindly does sort of, after, after each peak, she kind of does a refuel stop. So, she meets us and she has a table out with tea and coffee and snacks and stuff.

And so, you've helped her. Two or three years now, haven't you? But one year you joined us for the first peak and then stopped with my mum and went for lunch with her between sort of the second and third 

Gemma: peaks. That was while I was still living in London, actually. But yeah, I came on the Wintermere weekend, which was great.

Really enjoyed it. Met some really nice people. That was a Windermere weekend where we did the gill, gill climbing, which wasn't Gill scramble, yeah. Gill scrambling, which wasn't planned, [00:03:00] but we couldn't go for the walk and we did that instead and it was really good. Yeah, we swapped 

Chris: things around because it was a bit windy, so we, they didn't want to take us out on that lake that day, so we switched things around.

We did get out on the lake the day after, but that day, yeah, we ended up basically sacrificing the walk, which is a bit of a weird way, but But we were, we, anyway, we switched it up and we did the gill scramble. It made more sense at the time, but I'll not dwell on it. And, and then just to do introductions.

I mean, I've known Nat, we were saying before for about best part of 15 years, but you've never met, have you? 

Nat: Don't think so. No. So yeah, this will be an Interesting to hear. That's quite good actually, because maybe I can ask the, some of the questions that Chris should probably know the answer to. Being your, being your brother.

But yeah, interested to hear about your life and your story. 

Chris: Yeah, sorry, I never finished that intro, did I? I got sidetracked. So yeah, we're here to [00:04:00] talk about leaving London. I'll try not to focus on myself too much. I did that about five years ago, but you did it a year ago. So you'd been in London for a lot longer.

And I guess we're here to hear a little bit about you. We normally at this point, just ask people to introduce themselves actually and put them in the hot seat. So. Yeah, I 

Gemma: moved a year and a week ago now up north from down in London. I'd lived down there for about 15 years, maybe 16, so, so it's quite, quite a long time.

Huge amount of my adult life. I'd. I'd gone to uni up in Edinburgh and I did a degree in jewellery. So, yes, you can get a degree in jewellery and it's four years long. And I moved down to London initially. Is 

Nat: that the, the art college or where was that? 

Gemma: Yeah. Yeah, so a lot of places do offer jewelry courses [00:05:00] now, but when I wanted to do it all those years ago, there was only two places that offered it, which was Central Saint Martins in London and Edinburgh College of Arts.

And actually I visited both because I didn't know which one I wanted to go to. And I went down to London and really loved the buzz of it. But when I went into the art college at Central Saint Martins, I walked in to visit and there was one girl sitting in the studio with the little dog underneath her desk and there were no tutors around or anything.

And I asked where the tutors were and they were all off. I might get some people in trouble here, but hopefully not off working on their own things. And she said they would be back later. Whereas when I went up to Edinburgh, I walked in, everybody was sat at their desk. The whole studio was full. There was a really good vibe.

Buzz and there was a lady called Dorothy Hogg who actually sadly passed away earlier this year who was the head of the course at the time and she just came straight up to me like You know, embraced me, took me around, showed me everything, just made me feel really welcome. So that kind of just sealed the decision for me really.

[00:06:00] And yeah, so I moved to Edinburgh, was up there doing the degree. And then having, trying to start a career in creative industry, I guess the best place to be is London. So off I trotted down to London and 15 years later got a little bit stuck on the hamster wheel and I worked as a designer for 10 years and then sort of hit a bit of a wall with what I was doing there and felt a little bit lost really.

And wanted to leave my job and I was about to stop and go off traveling and a friend of mine, I went for a drink with him and he said, Oh, well, I work at an estate agency and we actually need a little bit of help on the phone. So just come and help us for the next couple of weeks. So I did that and really enjoyed it.

And then they offered me a job. And so then I've been an estate agent ever since. So, Really, really enjoy doing that. So 

Nat: I didn't realize you're an estate 

Gemma: agent, actually. What did you think? I was, [00:07:00] interestingly put Chris on the spot, 

Chris: people are gonna hate us 'cause we've got an estate agent, a ex lawyer, and an ex banker.

So like, it feels like the start of a 

Nat: joke. Some of us have seen the light and we, we'll get to see if, if Gemma has no, I don't. This is terribly, terribly researched this project, this particular podcast 'cause should know. At least what you do for a job before coming on. But no, we can geek out on property chat later.

Cause I was saying on a previous episode with Chris, so invested in residential property around Scotland well, particularly Glasgow and Bitcoin and Ethereum. Some of that's not gone so well. Chris and I spoke in a previous episode and he was telling us a bit about his. sort of childhood journey in terms of geographically moving around.

Presumably that was similar to you just trying to set the scene, is that you're not from London. Understand your family's sort of from the north originally. 

Gemma: I was actually born in [00:08:00] Wolverhampton and then when I was one, I think we moved to a little village called East Morton, just outside of Keithley in Yorkshire.

And when I was seven years old we moved out to a man in the Middle East and had an amazing upbringing out there, like really asked for a better upbringing there. And It was amazing, really beautiful place, was really gutted when we left, but my parents, our parents were, they left in, was it New Year's Eve on 2000, oh God, I can't remember.

Anyway, we were there for a long time, for 11, 12 years, I 

Chris: think. 11 and a bit years, yeah it would have been 2002 to 2003, I think, that New Year's Eve, we were, I don't know, I don't think you were with us, but I was on the plane with definitely mum, presumably mum and dad. And we were in the air, we'd just taken off and got served a bit of booze as we took off.

Yeah, we 

Gemma: were there from 92. So yeah, 11, 11 years then. So they left when I [00:09:00] was in my first year of uni. So I'd had this kind of amazing time where. I'd been sort of during my most formative years, I guess, been kind of flying backwards and forwards to there because, well, we both came back to boarding school that the company paid for us to, to come to.

So we went to Giggleswick in Yorkshire Chris a little bit before I did. So yeah, I was kind of had this amazing time of flying backwards and forwards. And then when I went to uni, mum and dad moved back over here. So they moved to Lancaster at the time. 

Nat: School, were you there at the same time or did you overlap?

Gemma: Yeah. Two years, I think so. 

Nat: He was in the cooler, older crowd. Was he then you sort of have to, he would sort of tell you to keep your distance. 

Gemma: Well, actually when I first got there, I remember on my first night, he came down to visit me and he bought. Parker, one of Chris's friends who was also at the school that had also been in Oman, so I [00:10:00] already knew.

And they came down to, to see me on my first night, just to check that I was alright and I'd settled in okay. And I was like, yeah, it's, you know, it's all good. I'm settled in. And then Chris was like, right, well, don't speak to me for the next three weeks. I guess it was a bit of. Tough love of, you know, find your own feet.

If you've 

Nat: got any problems, then I'm not here for you. 

Chris: How do you feel about that, Chris? No I don't know. I think people remember different things in different ways. I mean, I do remember actually going down. I thought, I mean, yeah, probably Richard was there or Parker, as you say there were, there was.

I feel there might've been a few more of us, but maybe I was wrong. But yeah, I do remember, I can't remember what the building was called, but sort of pretty much waving at you outside of it. I did some brotherly duties if I did apparently shed them after that. 

Gemma: But no, he was great. Like if ever I needed anything, I knew he was there.

So it was nice that we overlapped. He had a bit of a [00:11:00] reputation with some of the teachers that I had to overturn for myself. But

Nat: you've got a middle sister, did you say? And so did she, was she there at the same 

Gemma: time? So she's older. So she's four years older than me, two years older than Chris. So she left as I was coming in. Oh, okay. Yeah. She's older sister. Right. Okay. Yeah. She was at Lancaster uni. She started Lancaster uni the year I started at gig.

So, you know. weekends out and half terms and things, I'd go and stay with her in Lancaster. 

Nat: Okay, so sorry, I interrupted your story. Where, where'd we got to after school? 

Gemma: So, yeah, then I went up to Edinburgh to do my degree and then, like I said, moved down to London. The decision, so where I am now is just outside of Lancaster, actually, so.

I moved to be closer to family about seven minute drive from Chris [00:12:00] and similar to my sister as well and then like 25 minute drive to my mum. So that was why I ended up moving here. So our sister had come to uni here and she had a family here and stayed and then bit by bit, everyone sort of flocked to here.

So mum and dad moved back here and. They then separated. Mom moved to London for a bit and then came back when my sister had kids, so to be close to the grandchildren. And so me, mom and Chris were all in London at the same time, actually. So mom moved up here. Then a few years later, Chris moved up. So it just sort of was the natural place for me to, to end up coming to when I thought about leaving London.

I have to say it wouldn't have been the place that I would have picked to move to and I think that made the decision to leave London much harder and take a lot longer because it wasn't anywhere that I had a particular draw to move to. But now I'm here, I'm really enjoying it. So I'm glad that I did make that move.

Nat: Before we hear about where you are [00:13:00] now, tell us, take us back to London and What life was like there, what you were doing and how, how long did you live in London for? 

Gemma: So for about 15 or 16 years quite a long time, actually, I guess you sort of get a little bit stuck on that hamster wheel. But I. I really, really enjoyed London and London did a lot of positive things for me.

But I think as you get older in London, you know, sort of friends move on and life moves on. And I personally have got to the stage where I'm a bit of a workaholic. So I was working all the time and I wasn't really meeting any new people. And. I got to a point at the estate agency where I'd worked my way up and I decided I wanted a little bit of extra free time because you're working six day weeks in the estate agency industry in London.

So you have Sunday off and that's it. So by the time you sort of slept and cleaned your house, like there's not a [00:14:00] lot of extra time left. So I'd worked my way up and got. Promoted to an assistant manager role and so I got my weekends back, which was great But then I sort of stopped and looked around me at that point and realized that I didn't have anyone to spend this time with because All my friends had kind of left London by that point, and I didn't really have a huge amount of inclination to go out and meet new people because it was really hard to do in London.

And so I just sort of got to this kind of point where I was a bit exhausted with work. The first few years in London were amazing, you know, when you were young and going out and had the energy to go out and have an amazing time after work, but I just sort of got to the point where I didn't want to do that anymore.

And I just wanted to be at home reading a book or socializing with friends that weren't around anymore. So. I got to a point where I didn't really like who I was anymore as a person either. Which was part of the reason why I decided it was time to, to leave. I can babble quite a [00:15:00] lot. So I had actually made a few notes after when I first moved up here, about a couple of weeks after Chris said to me, we'd do the podcast.

And 

Chris: well, how old were you roughly when you moved to London? And then how old, roughly, when 

Gemma: you left? I must've been about 21. So straight, straight after uni, 38 when I left. So yeah, 17 years, I guess I was down there for. You 

Chris: mentioned Gemma that it was sort of harder to make friends when you got that time back, your weekends back, you said it was maybe harder to make friends.

Do you think, why was that? Or was that an age thing or an I dunno, why did you 

Gemma: feel that? I think it was partly an energy thing because even though I got my weekends back, I was still working long hours during the week, you know, I wouldn't get home until sort of eight, nine o'clock at night. And then by the time you've had dinner, you know, you kind of then want a little bit of your evening to yourself.

So, you know, you're not really sort of going to bed until kind of 11 o'clock every night and then you're back up straight into work again. So it was [00:16:00] partly an energy thing. I think by the time the weekend came around, you were a little bit tired and you didn't necessarily have that. Energy to go out and be in a social situation where you're meeting new people.

But also because. The vast majority of my friends were by that point tied into work. I'm really fortunate to have a working environment where we are all friends, we're basically like a family. So the social life revolves around work. So even though I had my weekends free, my friends were working or my other friends that I still had from outside of work by that point at all left London.

So there was nobody there to sort of meet new people through. either. I did join some meetup groups and go on, I really like walking. Again, another reason why the move up here has been really good because I get to go out walking a lot more than I did in London. But I joined some meetup groups and went out walking with people in London and I met a few people through that.

And I [00:17:00] guess you almost become quite disposable in London as well because there's the paradox of choice. There's always, you know, the next event or, you know, somebody else that's. new and interesting to speak to instead, I guess, but it was kind of, I felt like I was just on this kind of treadmill of, of people.

I'd meet people and not make any real deep conversations or deep connections with people enough to instigate meeting up a second time, which then leads to the, the kind of continued friendship, really. So everything was just a kind of instant. interaction and then people disappear off into the night and you never hear or see them again.

So yeah, it was that kind of disposable paradox of choice, really, that I think is quite ingrained in London as a society, which I haven't found as much up 

Nat: here. It's quite a common story, isn't it? For I know friends and that have Had the same kind [00:18:00] of experience where it's almost feels like a lot of people go and live in London for about 10, 15 years, and then actually they realize all their friends are living around different parts of London.

It takes forever to get around London. You can, I remember years ago, I went to To naively, I think it was in my early twenties, I thought, I'll go and visit two friends who are in London on the same day, spend about three hours on the tube. And after that, I realized actually in London, you can only really do one thing if you don't want to spend forever on public transport.

And I think people from what I've heard, get to a stage where. Their friends are in different parts of London because a lot of the time because of house prices, and you'll know this better than anyone, Gemma, I guess, that they get pushed out to different areas, North London, South London, West London, and then actually your friend who is living around the corner in North London, say, [00:19:00] is now in Southwest London, and that's an hour away.

So you might as well be in a different city by that point. People are so busy with their jobs. They're then not going to spend three hours traveling over the weekend to see you. And it seems that that culture becomes quite isolating. But I'm interested to hear what you think on I've heard the paradox is a, is a good way of an interesting way of saying is that you've got a lot of people Around you, but it seems hard to connect with people.

And I don't know why I don't know why that would be the be the case. Is that just like you say, because you've got so much choice that actually don't really need to. You don't need to seek a meaningful connection because you can just disappear into the night, you know, and you'll never see them again.

Whereas if you live in a small community, like it sounds like you do now, you kind of have to get on with people. Maybe you have to try a bit harder. And if, I don't know, if you're, if you're [00:20:00] not friendly and you don't make an effort, then you actually, there might be a bit of, well, that gets around the village or whatnot.

And do you know what I mean? There's a bit more of that kind of aspect 

Gemma: to it. Yeah, 100%. And I think what you say about, you know, just disappearing off into the night is, is really true. And yeah, people feel like they don't necessarily Need one another in London. I feel like as well it people are always suspicious of each other in London as well Because it is such a competitive environment, you know, people don't really trust each other either so that can be quite it's not the best footing to start off a any kind of relationship be it friendship or dating or business or whatever on a sort of questioning foot which I I think happens quite a lot as well.

But I got to the point actually where these are, this is actually coming from my notes from earlier. So I'm sorry that we're on a video, but I have actually can read from my notes because this actually touches onto all of that. Like I had reached a [00:21:00] point where I didn't really like myself anymore.

And I found that I'm quite an organized person and I would lose patience with people. Either in the car, driving to work or in work itself people that weren't organized enough or were causing me some sort of hassle. And so I was getting frustrated and feeling like I had quite a short fuse and a short temper.

And I didn't understand why I was in the situation that I was in. You know, I was just kind of angry at the world really. And I think a lot of people in big cities, perhaps. get to the point where they feel like that. But we're all human and our reaction is just a response of, and a product of the environment that we're in.

So you might think, God, they were a bit mean, but they've become like that as a result of the environment that they're in and that environment can always be changed, but when people are born, it's not like the midwife [00:22:00] stops and goes, Oh, hang on a sec. This is a nice one. This is a mean one. You know, like we become conditioned by.

the environment that we're living in and the environment that we put ourselves in. And I guess the stress that we put ourselves under as well. So we all sort of start from that blank canvas. But I think in London, particularly, people don't necessarily have the time to kind of stop and think and digest information that's coming into you from the world around you.

And so. You sort of end up feeling a little bit overwhelmed at times and, you know, if you're trying to get to work and there's, you know, people elbowing you out the way here and there, you know, you're kind of every day you're having this overload of information and people's responses to each other coming in.

And I don't think people have enough time to sort of stop and think about how their. Interacting with each other and people end up frustrated and perhaps a [00:23:00] little bit kind of overwhelmed and sort of end up losing themselves within all of that hustle and bustle that's going on. And I think that can get quite frustrating.

I guess it's the same for anyone with a, anyone, anywhere who's got a busy life, like. Maybe it's part of what contributes, like I've got friends who are parents and they say that they feel like they've perhaps lost themselves a little bit in that parenthood, you know, as much as they love being parents.

So I guess, again, it's sort of any environment that you're in where you're maybe not having much time for yourself. You end up feeling a little bit, maybe overwhelmed, losing confidence in yourself, losing touch with who you are as a person. And I think that. After a prolonged period of time can actually start to have quite an effect on you as a person and and who you are And I felt like that was sort of happening with me like I didn't really recognize who I was anymore and I didn't really [00:24:00] like the way that I was responding to the people around me.

Nat: If there was one single point where you had to pick out that was like, you know, that's, you know, a watershed moment where you think, I don't like the way I responded to that. Or, you know, you mentioned, I didn't like the person I'd become. Was there a single moment or can you think of one where you thought, Hmm, I don't, this isn't right now.

Gemma: It was in work actually. And, and One of my colleagues had, we were getting ready for a Saturday, well, the team were getting ready for a Saturday of viewings and Saturday of viewings has to be run like a military operation. So everything is prepared on a Friday afternoon because you don't have time to go into the office on a Saturday and you have to organize key swaps and your diary has to run.

Like this military operation because if your diary is running behind you miss a key swap with your colleague And then their diary runs behind and then they miss a key swap with someone else and it has this huge knock on effect so you have to be super organized [00:25:00] and one of my colleagues had gone out for the afternoon and taken a set of keys that somebody else in the office needed for the following day and The other person was running around like a headless chicken trying to find this set of keys and nobody could contact the person who had them and everyone in the office was getting really stressed and coming to me as a manager and the person who had the keys and caused this bit of mayhem in the office, it doesn't, it doesn't sound like a huge deal, but it was causing stress and that person walked back into the office and I just went absolutely crazy at them in front of everybody and I just stopped and I just thought, wow.

God, I'm a dick. Like I just, you know, like it was just not, I just didn't respond very well. And I guess that was the sort of moment where I stopped and thought, yeah, I don't, I don't like who I am anymore. And that, yeah, it was just, that starts to affect [00:26:00] everybody then. And then 

Chris: it's a bit hard or weird to hear you say some of that because obviously we're brother and sister.

So we don't really talk. Maybe it's good. That's why I'm here. Yeah, exactly. But I guess on the defensive side, I think what you're describing is probably it's not that you're a nasty person. I think it's just stress. And I think that's That sounds to me like just a stress response. And I think, you know, I've seen that in people around me in our lives, like when they have been stressed and that's pretty much always been in the circumstances I can think of through work, then they have been, let's say snappier or, or, or whatever the word.

That's right to use is so I don't know that the instance you describe anyway, sounds like that stress response. And I guess from my perspective, I think we could see that you were stressed. I mean, I guess there's been almost two phases to your career. We've not touched on it too much, but there was at first you were working [00:27:00] more in that sort of jewelry or design industry.

And then, as you say, you had this transition to the estate agent and what were they roughly sort of seven or eight years each, something like that or not? 

Gemma: Yeah. 

Chris: For probably pretty much the second half of that sort of first career you had, I think we all saw the stress and saw it was getting to you and sort of wanted you to have a change, but obviously that's got to come from you.

And I think that ultimately ended up you becoming the estate agent. And then I think. Well, from my perspective anyway, I think I saw you were getting stressed and sort of bogged down and perhaps not as enjoying London as much as you would before. And yeah, the, the, I think I can see, I think since you moved up that maybe life feels a little less stressful for you.

Nat: Yeah. I mean, before we jump out of London, because I think it's lots of things to explore there. I mean, stress does things and I think picking up on a few things, actually, [00:28:00] you mentioned You know, we're a product of our environment, which I definitely agree with, you know, I've been in situations where it's not been healthy and I think actually one of the main, I used to go and see a guy called the happiness guy in Glasgow, great name, just a guy I went and chatted to, he was kind of like a life coach, but He's Kind of not really was talked about values.

His name's Gordon's a shout out to a really nice guy. And now we're kind of just friends and good relationship. Anyway, we did a lot of kind of discussing around values and trying to get to what matters to you. So then you can try and focus on the right things in life, which was valuable. But He would always, not always, but he focused on quite a lot was environment.

Now, actually you need to put yourself in the right environment to succeed. You can do all this other work. on yourself. But if you're not in the right environment, if you're in a stressful environment, then it can make a huge difference. [00:29:00] Although conversely, I recently went on a cruise and they had a, don't worry, I'll explain where this is going.

It does link together.

I'm not sure how that would link in there was a lady, this is Chris's dreams coming out on the podcast here guys Oh, you're throwing me with that. There was a lady who was a. She was kind of, she was a psychologist and she worked on TV shows, like she was the original psychologist on Big Brother and she did a number of discussions and talks on, on the cruise and we went to a couple of them, but she was actually saying that, your environment only accounts for up to about 10 percent of how you feel, which I struggled with a little bit and I did end up chatting to her around the buffet one lunchtime, but never managed to get to the bottom of this particular question. I probably feel like [00:30:00] it's I'm not on board with that.

Oh, controversial. 

Chris: I'm going to quote someone else, but you know, I've mentioned this guy, Dan Buechner and the Blue Zones. And so, so the bit that I really enjoy from that is sort of reverse engineering longevity, and that's what a lot of his is about, is about health and longevity and maximizing good health in too late age rather than, rather than.

You know, becoming ill and living for a long time after that. But the other part of the thing he does is about happiness. So the sort of what they call the blue zones of happiness. And in that he says the single most. important thing or the, the single thing you can do to have the most impact on happiness, if you're unhappy is to move.

And so there is, oops, I just knocked my mic. There is some data around that. I can nip out and get the book, but yeah, I think he disagrees with the lady that you met. That's interesting. Could I, I'm going to nip away and get the book and I'll pull some random facts up then for you if you 

Nat: need. I've got one thing to say before you do that [00:31:00] though, because you've been reading that Matthew Perry book and there was a bit in that book that struck me where he calls it doing a geographic, which I'd never heard before.

You know how Americans love to give everything a name. Doing a geographic just means you're not happy here, so you're just going to move from LA to I don't know, Seattle, whatever it is, and it was just keep moving. And I think it's a really complex. It's almost nature and nurture, isn't it? It's a complex equation because some of this is where I was getting back to your story, Gemma.

And there was a question at the end of this monologue which Chris rudely interrupted. Sorry. There is your environment, but there's always also your response to your environment. So, you know, some people do thrive in London, you know, we shouldn't, you know, hate on London as a city. Lots of people love it.

There's so many things to do. If, you know, particularly I think if you have got the energy to go out there and do things and [00:32:00] you can, I mean, some people really do find the community there. You think of shows like EastEnders, you know, that kind of was trying to portray a very close knit community within and maybe different because they're all, you know.

Most are born and bred there. But where I'm going with this is, I guess you've got your environment, but you've also got react, your reaction to the environment I wondered, have you had a chance to reflect on, on that, to a certain extent, I suppose some of it is like, who are you as a person? How did you react to the stress in the environment and London as a whole?

And some people it probably suits and some people it just probably doesn't. 

Gemma: Yeah. I think I just need to rewind a little bit as well, because I. I did have, you know, an amazing community around me in London and I, in the early years and I did, you know, really thrive in London, but I think I just [00:33:00] not outstayed my welcome, but outstayed my, you know, little bubble, really and I had been thinking of leaving for about five years before I actually did.

So I think, you know, that was when everything sort of changed for me and my group sort of moved on, really. So I did have. All those connections and yeah, let's not hate on London. Like it was an amazing place and I, I really enjoyed it and I got a lot out of it. But I think going back to this.

environment and how you respond to it. I think you also have to take responsibility for how you are responding to your environment as well. Like the company that I work for are amazing and the environment that we have generally in an office is fantastic. And it is like being in a family, you know, it's.

It's fantastic, the amount of support and everything that we have there but I personally just wasn't dealing with it very well and other people were. So I've got to stop and look at the common denominator there and take responsibility for it. It was me that had started to struggle with, you know, [00:34:00] the environment, not the environment necessarily.

You know, I mean, what I'd saying about the stressful environment was as much like. The constant amount of information coming in when I was in London, I personally just needed to stop and take a bit of a step back. I guess, who am I? It's a very good question. I guess the things that I value and the things that feed into happiness for me is doing those.

more wholesome things that I didn't necessarily have time to do in London, like just taking life slower, like going out for a walk, you know, and, you know, baking or cooking or just sitting and reading a book, doing those simple life pleasures that don't necessarily lead to anything bigger beyond those simple tasks.

But those are the sorts of things that I enjoy doing that I [00:35:00] personally thrive off and that make me happy. So I guess feed into who I am. And those were the things that I was missing a lot in London. So therefore I then started to lose, lose who I was, I guess, fundamentally. And this is the next stage for me is I am fundamentally a creative person and I don't really do any of those creative things anymore.

And that's something that I would like to get back into doing. That's kind of, yeah, next stage for me, once I'm More settled up here, I think, I think it's 

Nat: a common that's quite a common thing, I guess, is that actually within our society, we're looking for, you know, a steady job and a certain amount of comfort and part of that's finances and having a good job.

And that forces us into that kind of, or often forces us into that kind of right brain type [00:36:00] environment where you described earlier, which. Probably. I mean, can you get much further away from creativity by doing real estate? I mean, it's just make as far from the outside. It just looks like diary management and make sure you turn up.

I mean, just say just it's, you know, there is, there is a lot more to it than that. But a lot of it, especially I imagine at junior levels, it's just making sure you're in the right time at the right place with the right keys, as you described earlier, which is very ripe. brain. It's not that creative. I'm sure there are elements of creativity within it.

But I think a lot of people have to do that. And we're, as a society, we value that much more than creativity. And people find it a lot harder to get on. And, you know, if you take it to an extreme, it's hard to be an artist and make ends meet. There are a few people who do phenomenally well at it and, you know, make decent money, there are many, many [00:37:00] more who.

You know, try and would, would love to be making more money doing what, what's going to passion for them and what brings them joy, but it's not easy, is 

Gemma: it? Yeah. I think that was part of what made me move as well. That was, that was my story really in a. Like I was working as a designer and I'd worked my way up from an intern to the head of design and I was earning a set salary and I sort of, but I was working because creative industry as well.

When you're working on a creative project, it never ends. It can always be improved. You know, it's not like you write an essay and you go from a. And once you finish writing the essay, it stops with a creative design. You can always tweak it. You can always change it and it always grows. So there's not a sort of clear point of, yes, that's complete now, put it to one side.

And so the hours that I was [00:38:00] working were just silly because that you can always do more to each design. And I wasn't getting the financial. benefits of working the long hours that I was working and I kind of helped to grow the company that I was working for at the time to the point where we'd got a royal warrant and I was the head of design and I just stopped and thought without becoming one of the top one percent, which I clearly wasn't ever going to become, you know, this is.

As much as I can do now within the, aside from setting up my own business, this is as far as I can kind of get within the creative industry in London. You know, I could work at this for another 10 years and probably be in a similar place to where I am. Whereas what really worked for me being an estate agent was that all of those extra hours that I put in, because you're on a commission basis.

That extra viewing that you do, if it leads to a deal, you're then directly rewarded for those long hours that you're putting in. [00:39:00] So if you worked hard and you were good at your job and you worked the long hours, you also got the good pay back in return. Whereas being the, being a creative, you were working the similar number of hours, but actually weren't getting that commission.

Nat: And I guess that's where the sense of the treadmill or the rat pressing the little button for the rewards comes from. I'm not saying it's a rat. Well, I'm saying it's a rat race. Sorry. Sorry. I'm saying that. So what do you think? I'm interested in that. What do you think drove? You know, what is it that drives people to do that?

Is it the comfort, the financial comfort that we seek to make sure, you know, we've, we're just paying the bills effectively. Why do you think, what, what, what do you think made 

Gemma: you do it? Yeah, for me, it was, it was, it was quite [00:40:00] addictive really, because. I was in a lucky enough position whereby I just managed to buy myself a flat and I had this huge great mortgage and I could see that, you know, I could go home an hour earlier and have an extra hour sitting on my sofa watching TV or, you know, eat slightly earlier, whatever that be.

When I started to realize that actually if I spend that extra hour out doing an extra viewing, I might get an extra, say, 1000 come in if it was, you know, a nice big property that I just sold. And then I would see my mortgage start to go down a little bit, because I put as much money as I could into paying off the mortgage.

And so that became, it was almost like betting, really. It became really addictive. And seeing. The money come in and the mortgage go down and then, you know, the, the sort of swing of the mortgage kind of change. I just found that's what motivated me and that's what, [00:41:00] yeah, I almost got addicted to this.

Nat: It's like gamification of life almost, you know, and, but maybe does it. Did life, was that too much of a focus? Did you feel like, did your brain start to kind of more fixate on that rather than actually prioritize walking, baking, cooking, you know, all these activities that would bring you pleasure? 

Gemma: Yeah, a hundred percent.

And I, You did get the balance wrong, but I'm also still in a, in a fortunate situation, you know, I, I definitely got the work life balance wrong. And, you know, I kind of got to a stage where, well, I don't know, maybe I've, you know, I've missed definitely spending time. with my family, but also perhaps, you know, missed out on maybe meeting somebody to have my own family with, you know, I'm 39 now.

So, you know, even if I met somebody tomorrow, you know, the [00:42:00] opportunity to have children and also my energy levels, you know, the opportunity to have children might have passed for me. So, you know, it's almost like I've. Given up potentially, you know, not being all doom and gloom, but that potentially that trade off that I had of, you know, working hard and paying off the mortgage has potentially cost me the option of having a family.

But then equally, I think if I'd have tried to balance all of that out and meet somebody and have a family back then, I think. The stress that I felt from feeling the pressure to try and keep up on a mortgage and to try and have enough money to continue living in London, the stress from that would have perhaps not put me in the right frame of mind to have a healthy relationship anyway.

So it's kind of. almost the extremities of either scenario. I don't know whether or not I [00:43:00] personally would have been able to balance both of those things together. So I made the decisions that I did and I am happy with my life. You know, I'm, I'm happy with where I'm at and you know, but you can always sort of stop and look back and with hindsight think, well, you know, maybe I should have made a bit more of an effort to.

You know, stop and go for a drink one night instead of go and do that extra viewing, but, you know, when you're, when you're living it, it kind of You make the choices that you do. So 

Chris: you say you maybe got some of that balance wrong, but do you think that was you're in London for a long time? Do you think that was throughout or towards the end of that period in London or towards the end of each of those two different careers or what?

Gemma: I think it was throughout because I did have a boyfriend at one time, a Neil who Chris met. And I remember One night, we'd had plans to go into [00:44:00] town and meet his friends, and that was when I was still a designer. And I cancelled because I wanted to stay and finish off working on a project and I look back now and I remember cancelling on that evening, but I don't remember what the project was that I was working on.

So, I remember him saying to me at the time you know, you don't, Give enough, you know, I wish that sometimes you gave as much to work to other people And you know and sort of took that time instead of giving yourself to your employees Like I wish you took that time and gave that time to yourself and that really stuck with me actually So I think it's something that a balance that I personally have always struggled with.

But I'm, I'm a perfectionist and I've always kind of put that pressure on myself. I don't know if you remember Chris, when we were kids, but I used to spend hours doing my homework and there was no need for, for me to sort of sit in my bedroom, you know, [00:45:00] making sure all those lines were perfect kind of thing.

So I think that's just something that. fundamentally maybe part of my personality, but I need to direct more towards other areas of my life. 

Nat: So would you say this podcast is called Life Changes. Would you say that you've over the last period of time had more of a chance to reflect upon, you know, who you are, what your traits are, we've all got different traits and, and often our biggest strengths are our biggest weaknesses.

So. Would you say you've had a chance to more reflect on that and a chance to reflect on kind of your, your life so far as it were over the last sort of 12 months since you've moved?

Gemma: Yeah, I do, and I, I feel like it has been a, a really reflective period and I feel like there's still a lot of kind of positive growth ahead for [00:46:00] me personally, that I've just sort of taken the last year to really assess. all of that stuff, which I never really had time to stop and think about any of these things when I was in London, which I think is why people do get stuck on that hamster wheel, because you don't have that time to just stop and reflect.

So this year has been really great for me to just stop and do that. And in fact, a lot of the things that I'm saying to you tonight are things that I've kind of thought myself, but haven't really actually said aloud yet. It's kind of things that are just kind of coming to. reality and realization for me now as well.

But I was really fortunate that the company that I work for have been really, really supportive. And they've are the ones that have really helped me. In this move and this change, I think. So I essentially went, they, so I essentially went from being, it's, it's very difficult to, when you're an estate agent [00:47:00] working in London to live up north, so obviously all the properties are down in London and I'm up here, so my role had to change quite drastically.

So I went from working as the assistant sales manager, right down to the admin girl, so. with that obviously huge change in, you know, responsibility and in the hours that I work, in the type of role that I do, in the money that I earn. But it was something that the company didn't have to do for me because we're not a company where people work remotely because of the nature of the business.

So I was really fortunate that You know, we'd kind of built up enough of a trust over the years that they were able to, you know, sort of bend their rules and allow me to, to come and do this and set a precedent that hadn't been set before. And that probably isn't really going to be repeated a huge amount because it's not possible for everybody to be [00:48:00] working remotely in the estate agency industry.

But I think the support that I've had from them in making this move has really kind of helped, helped with everything as well, because. It's allowed me that time and security to sort of stop and have this reflective time as well. 

Chris: And can I jump in with a couple of points? So as Nat alluded to before, we're not here to beat up on London.

It's just that I guess you got to a point where it's served its purpose maybe. And the other thing is probably being a bit kinder to you as well as to London, which I guess is. You were there because it did work for you for whatever the correct amount of period of time was, even if that did come to a point where it was expiring.

And yeah, I guess you progressed well in two careers and you got to pretty much where you wanted to be and completely changed from one industry to another. And then I guess the other thing to throw in is even if you. do [00:49:00] come to a point where you decide or realize that something's not working for you.

It's much easier to know what you don't want than what you do want. And so sometimes that change can be difficult. And then I guess also conscious that I guess you were making those decisions by yourself. Like, you know, you don't necessarily have someone else or another, you know, a partner or, or necessarily many people that have been living in London and moved up to a village kind of almost in the sticks, it is a bit of a radical change.

So it's a bit of a brave step to take as well.

Gemma: I did have a friend who really helped me along the way, actually, and she'd. worked at the same company as me in London, and she'd moved to Ireland to be closer to her family. And so I'd seen her sort of do that move just before COVID. And. So that [00:50:00] was really helpful actually having, having a close friend so that I could just pick up the phone to who'd, who'd made a similar move a few years before.

And it was actually, I think seeing her make that move that gave me a bit more confidence in making that move myself as well. Yeah. Tell 

Nat: us a bit more about that decision making process. 

Gemma: About five years ago was when I first started thinking about it. And then I thought, well, I'm not ready to do it yet as 

Nat: well.

So you're a decisive person then? 

Gemma: Yeah!

I thought I wasn't ready to do it then, so I thought about doing it in a two stage process and I tried to buy a buy to let up here with a view to renting it out so that I could try and up my income shorter term so that I could feel financially comfortable enough to then make the move and hopefully try and keep a property in London and rent that out.

Which would mean that, you know, I'd be super comfortable all round, but it was just [00:51:00] too much of a stretch. And so that was sort of what I was trying to do for the first year or so of that decision making. And then I realized that that probably wasn't going to be feasible and decided instead to just stay focused on.

being in London for another year just to build up a little bit more money behind me to help me make the move, I guess. And then COVID happened and as everybody's lives just sort of paused for a little while. And then I just got sort of stuck back into the hamster wheel, really. And for us, the market was super, super busy straight after COVID in the area that we worked in.

So just didn't, didn't have time to breathe at all. And I just kind of got back onto the hamster wheel, like I say, and it was only when I changed my role, which was just about a year before I moved up and changed up [00:52:00] to the role where I got my weekends back, that I really started to sit down and have the time to really put things into place.

So I sat down and made spreadsheets of. You know, financially, could I afford to make the move? And I made spreadsheets of everything, you know? What's the benefits of being in London? What's the benefits of being outside of London? And then ultimately, I was on the phone to the friend who'd moved over to Ireland, and she said, I can't talk about this with you anymore, and she said, you know, in, in nicest possible way, you know, we've gone over this for the last five years, you know, you're either going to do it or you're not going to do it.

Let's stop talking about it. And she was right, probably 

Nat: take someone like that to just say that, doesn't it? Yeah, it's probably. I'm sure I've done that and I've got friends who've done that and eventually just have to tell them, like, you are basically doing this to yourself. So, and someone has to say that before you actually think, [00:53:00] oh, crap, they're probably right.

I just have to, whether it's a fear I've got to overcome or a indecision I've got to overcome or something, someone needs to do that. 

Gemma: Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, it was kind of a bit of a ripping the bandage off moment for me, really. I guess it was. Do I wish I'd done it sooner? Yes and no, but I think I needed to, I, I was still in love with London.

I needed to fall out of love with it. It's a very difficult place to leave because there are so many amazing things going on there. And I continually over, You know, of course of a few months, I just started asking myself the question of what would have made me happier today? And that was when I started to realize that, you know, like, could I have been happier today?

And if so, what would it have been that made me happier? And that's when I started to realize that, well, I'd have been happier if I'd have [00:54:00] had time to go for a walk, or if I'd had time to actually stop and cook dinner, or And those were the sorts of things that made me start to realize For real, that, you know, I needed to have a slower pace for where I was.

And I thought the other side of my brain, I guess the devil on the shoulder was kind of saying, well, just another year again, which is always the thing, just another year, just another couple of months, just another year. And I think that that is the difficult thing that kept sucking me back in. And eventually I just stopped and I thought, well.

For me personally, I was in a fortunate enough situation where I owned my own house, well my own flat, and I had a good stable job, and I just thought, if I stay in London for another year, what difference is that going to make in my life? It's not going to make me a multi millionaire. So, you know, I've got a roof over my head and I've found a [00:55:00] company that is, I enjoy working for where I feel valued and secure.

I was like, if I can find a way to hold on in some way to that security of the company and, and, and the support that I feel there, then. now is the time to go. So I just sort of reached that point where I just realized that another year wasn't going to mean that, wasn't going to make a huge financial change to me.

It wasn't going to make sense fiscally versus what I was missing out in terms of being closer to family. We have two young nieces who are you know, I just sort of got to the point where I thought, well, if I wait another year, I'll be 40 before I'm moving, you know, which seems psychologically a bit of a barrier.

And the girls are going to get to the sort of age where they're going to be too cool to want to hang out with their parents, nevermind with their auntie and uncle. And, you know, [00:56:00] kind of, you know, it got to the point where I thought the balance of going and spending time with family and. And giving myself more time.

I think 

Chris: you've kind of hit the nail on her head a bit there because, well, this is, I might go on a bit of a tangent here, but I think this is a huge thing that's really difficult for anyone in life, which is, I guess you're taught to have a good job or you've got a little cat there for anyone on YouTube.

Hello, Maggie. So I've lost my train of thought as well. I guess we're taught in society to have a good job, and that pretty much means chasing promotions and maximizing your income. And it's really difficult, I think, to get to the point where you make that decision, that the choice you are making.

For the first time is not about maximizing income and okay, sure. I know you appreciate you changed career partway through. So maybe that wasn't necessarily completely the first time, but to actually step away and say, there's more [00:57:00] important things in life than money or trading my time for money or whatever.

It's a really tough thing to do. And, you know, maybe a lot of people don't get there, but yeah, you have to just. Take that slightly more holistic view. And then this brings me on to Jim Carrey. And I'll probably reference this in a few episodes now, but Jim Carrey does this fantastic clip. I'll put a link below to it, actually.

And he's been interviewed and he says. I'm not planning. He's like, I'm retiring. And the interview was like surprised and sort of says he joking. And he says, no, my intention is to retire. He's like, okay, if the perfect script comes along that I feel I can really add value to, then I'm not saying never, but he says.

I am enough. He's like, I have done enough. I have enough. And it's a really, really good clip. It's quite heartfelt. And I do think he comes across as really genuine. And I think that's just it. Like you get to a point where you're like, yeah, I could chase money and just do one more year and just earn this [00:58:00] much more.

And I was the same. I was earning good money in London, stepped away. Okay. I wasn't in love with London and never really had been the way that you were. I kind of felt it was a little bit overrated. So I'll try not to beat. up on London too much. But yeah, I think it's hard to do that. And yeah, you just have to take that brave pill and say enough is enough.

And now I need to do something for me. 

Gemma: Something that Chris had said to me around the same time that my friend said she couldn't talk to me about the move anymore. And Chris said, I remember sitting out in, in my garden on the phone to Chris and he said, when you get to your deathbed and you turn and look back, it's going to be, it's not going to be.

The job and work, it's going to be the time that you didn't spend with family. And that actually really resonated with me. And that was actually the following day I went and put my flat on the market. 

Nat: Wow. Good good pep talk, Chris. 

Chris: I was gonna say that sounds really harsh. I was like, [00:59:00] surely it was a bit nicer phrased and was more along the lines of on your deathbed, no one regrets the amount of time or says they wish it had worked more.

I don't know if I laid it on quite as thick with the guilt. I don't remember that, but that sounds like the context of something I would say, even if I Didn't 

Gemma: we just say the same thing? Yeah, 

Nat: exactly. Chris is trying to make him sound like a nice guy, you know. We all know you're a nice guy, Chris. I'm sure you said it in a very nice way.

So exactly. 

Chris: That's my point. Thanks. Exactly. We'll move on then. Thanks. 

Gemma: He did. It's a fond, it's a fond memory. It's a good memory. 

Nat: Chris equals nice guy. Just to summarize for anyone out there. Thanks. No, I was just 

Chris: going to say

Nat: link below to the profile. Yeah, I was listening to something the other day that was talking about, I don't know if it's more of an entrepreneurial spin on things, but it was saying, it's okay to leave money on the table [01:00:00] was the message, which is another way of saying pretty much the same thing, maybe in a different context, but it's, we.

I sort of keep using this phrase, but capitalistic society, we all live in, we are kind of told culturally to just keep pushing, keep earning more money, you know, we all know that but actually it's one thing knowing it and another thing, kind of breaking out that and doing something about it. Being brave and prioritizing other things.

So I think this was more talking about, you know, you don't always have to, like Jim Carrey, he left money on the table. He could have done more films and he just decided that wasn't the right thing for him. 

Chris: That's a really nice way of putting it. I think I'll remember that, like it's okay to leave money on the table.

That sums it up quite nicely. You don't always have to take everything. And then I guess just in terms of the story, then Gemma, it feels, I feel like slightly with. Been beating upon on you and London, which wasn't the intention, but why don't we [01:01:00] flip it to how's the last year been? What has happened? How do you feel?

How are you spending your time? Tell us some of the. Nice stuff. 

Gemma: It's been really good. It's been really refreshing. It's been really nice to, to spend more time with everybody in the family. You know, Chris included. We have an evening where we all go to our mom's and we all have dinner together. Those are really important sort of touch ins really that I've, I've really enjoyed that I was completely missing out on before.

Yeah, 

Chris: and if mum ever listens to this, like, you know, we don't, we, we want to spend time with a coffin dodge as well we can. Don't love that. She's spitting in my dinner next week. Sorry, I'll stop interrupting. 

Gemma: No, don't worry. But it's been just really nice. You know, breathing fresh air and, and just taking things slower and doing those day to [01:02:00] day tasks like cooking dinner, but really relishing in those moments and just really enjoying being in the moment, I guess, is kind of summarizing up how my last year has been and just stopping and.

You know, enjoying doing what I'm doing at any given moment. And that's something that I've really relished this year that I don't feel like I really had a chance to do before. And meeting new people. So there's a pub just down the road here that I go to every Friday night as well and just sit and hang out with the locals and catch up with them.

And I remember the first night that I went in, I walked in and there was just face with this sort of sea of grey hair and everybody stopped. The place just went quiet and everyone just stopped and turned and stared at me. They plonked me down in the middle of the mall and, and made me feel so welcome.

And I just sat there and had this [01:03:00] amazing night, just sort of laughing and joking with this group of blokes that were aged sort of 70 to 90. And now they're some of my closest friends and it's not sort of what I'd envisaged, you know, and the types of friends that I'd envisaged meeting when I moved up here, but I wouldn't change it for the world.

And it's amazing. And it's just really wholesome and kind of. You know, feed your soul really doing those little things. So I just have these little routines, the touching of the family, the touching on a Friday with the guys at the pub and just doing those little bits. And then in between, you know, every morning before work, I go out for a half hour walk, which I never would have done in London.

And just, I think getting out into the fresh air and having a bit of a morning to myself before my working day starts has been a huge change as well for me. And something that I really enjoy. I try and go out lunchtime for a walk as well. So yeah, just getting a lot more [01:04:00] outdoor time, you know, not even necessarily doing anything strenuous, but just going for a little walk has just makes a huge difference to your day really.

So it's just been an overall improved quality of life for me. And I'm really enjoying living in a village where like we were saying earlier, you do have to kind of give the time to stop and get to know people. Like just before I came on the call, for example, some people that I've seen around in the village but not really spoken to, just knocked on the door and gave me a little leaflet to say that they're having a jingle and mingle on Christmas Eve and did I want to go round to their house and, you know, have mince pies and wine with them.

And that's just something that never would have happened in my lifestyle before. And something that. It's just really, yeah, I think just being welcomed into the village and being able to spend more time with family have just been huge improvements for me. [01:05:00] 

Nat: I've got a question for you, Gemma. When you were in London, I mean, you mentioned taking you back here and this will, I'm aware I may have sort of come across a bit negative on this call, so sorry about that.

I think this will come back to a positive point, but did you feel lonely in London? 

Gemma: Yes and no. I mean, I'm quite happy in my own company, so I don't, there were times when I felt lonely, but I had some great people around me at work. And I was obviously meeting new people every day out and about doing my job as well.

You know, new people wanting valuations or new people wanting viewings, you know, you meet new people every single day in that way. Your 

Nat: job was actually quite a good way of communicating. with people as well, like, well, all around with your colleagues and customers. So although you might not be spending time out with your job as much as maybe you would have liked with friends and family, actually, it sounds like you get quite a lot [01:06:00] of communication, which is important in the job.

Gemma: Yes, exactly. Yeah. So I wouldn't have said. I felt lonely, but then they weren't again, those, I guess they sort of were the types of interactions whereby it tops you up to a certain level, but they don't go deeper because they are those transient sort of relationships, you know, it's someone that you're, you're working with.

And although you're meeting new people every day, you know, it's not going to be somebody that you end up, you know, forming a friendship with. So it, you I don't think I felt lonely in a way that I was always helping and interacting with new people all the time, which I felt filled that sort of loneliness gap for me, but I guess I got to the point where my sort of deeper, I, I guess I was lonely in a way that I didn't have my deeper friendships around me anymore.

So I guess lonely in my [01:07:00] soul rather than on the face of it, if that makes sense. 

Nat: Yeah. And do you find that it's more fulfilling now, is that the right word, in relation to conversations and relationships that you have with these friends that you've met in the village and being close to your family? 

Gemma: Yeah, a hundred percent.

I actually, I just went back down to London a couple of days ago for a Christmas party and it was only the second time I've been back down and I was listening to a podcast actually, as I was walking through a part of London, which I used to spend a lot of time and spend a lot of time going out and, and I was almost having this moment where I was like, Oh gosh, maybe I do miss London.

And at the same time, A part of the podcast came on and said home is the place where they notice when you are not there, when the people around you notice that you're not there. And that really [01:08:00] resonated with me. And just at the same time, I had a text message from one of the guys that goes into the pub and said, you know, you're not coming in tonight.

You know, so you're not home, are you not coming in tonight? And that really, yeah, resonated. And it made me realize that the connections that I formed up here. You know, are, you know, perhaps on a different level to the connections that I would have formed in London and therefore that makes you feel, you know, valued and like you are, you know, this, this feels like home and obviously having family around as well.

That's obviously a whole different level of kind of relationship in itself as well. So. You know, I'm really enjoying. 

Nat: And maybe valued for who you are, possibly, rather than what you do, rather than what you bring. You know, I'm sure there's more to it. [01:09:00] Sounds like your work's been incredibly, incredibly supportive, which is fantastic.

Sounds like you've been very lucky with work. But I'm just aware in more of a general sense that I guess there's a difference, isn't there, between, like, and I've thought about this a lot recently, about how you're, how you're valued by people. And I've certainly, probably over the last year and a half, kind of missed that, missed that feeling of being valued.

You know, whatever context and seeking more of that. So it sounds like you actually have quite a good balance because you've still got the work relationships, but now you've forged these new relationships closer to family. So yeah, it sounds great.

Chris: Now, can I jump in and you asked that question, which I think is a really good and powerful question that probably doesn't get asked enough, which is about loneliness. Social, social isolation. Is massive, and I think we always think of lonely people [01:10:00] as people that are like older, widowed, like OAPs or whatever.

And actually, I think it touches everyone, like Gemma, we had a conversation, I don't know, at some point in the last year about it, but, yeah, I think it's in a way it feels like a taboo thing to say, but yeah, there are times when I will feel lonely and that doesn't mean I'm like lonely all the time.

But I think that's quite natural. Sometimes it's just a cold, dark evening. You finish work in the summer. You would be busy doing something going out for me on the motorbike or meeting up with people or even just a walk or something. And sometimes in the winter, it's hard to do that. So yeah. I guess my, I'm answering the question slightly.

I did leave London if that helps, but I think it's an important subject that you bring up. I think you could feel lonely in London, or you could feel lonely not in London. But I think, or what I see for you, Gemma, that's really changed in the last year is that you have community now. See, maybe you will still feel lonely at points.

Maybe you did in London, [01:11:00] but you have that depth of community, particularly, as you say, in the village. It's nice that we're up here as well. But I think, I guess that's just a deeper, I feel that's what's probably hard to create in London, or maybe you can have community. Let's say you take the stereotypical model of people go uni and then they leave in the early twenties.

They all moved down to clap them together and they have a bit of community and that's great. And I certainly saw that with my friendship group from school. But yeah, to actually build community when you're older is maybe a little bit trickier in London, where it's slightly more of a young person's game, perhaps.

And I feel that's what I see you've really benefited from in the last year, community. That was my thoughts anyway, but no, I thought it was a great question. 

Gemma: There was an element as well of where I'd sort of got to the point where. Every Monday morning in work, we used to have a meeting and we'd [01:12:00] all get together and just before it, we'd all be talking saying, what did you do this weekend?

What did you do this weekend? And everybody, you know, was like, oh, I went to this club and I, you know, went to this restaurant and did all this and, you know, I would be sitting there saying, well, I, you know, clean my flat and. read a book and people would be a bit like, Oh, poor you. That's really sad. And I'd be like, well, actually I had a great weekend, you know, I had a really nice time and I'd really enjoyed just sitting, reading a book and doing my chores.

And it was kind of frowned upon. Like maybe, maybe it wasn't, maybe I just felt like it was frowned upon that. I almost felt pitied that I wasn't in a relationship and I was on my own and I didn't have many friends around me. And I really relished. The time doing those simple things, but I felt like other people were, were looking down on me and it was kind of.[01:13:00] 

Whereas up here, if you say to someone, you know, they say, what did you do the weekend? And you said, Oh, I sat and read a book and, you know, went for a walk. They're like, Oh, that sounds amazing. I did that too. And it's kind of, you know, that sort of in London, I guess, because there is so much to do and there's all this amazing stuff on your doorstep.

If you're not out doing it, it's almost like, well, why aren't you? Is there, is there a problem? Whereas. Up here, it's much more acceptable to do those more wholesome things that I enjoy doing as well and I think that was part of what made me realize that actually maybe it was, it was time for me to, to move.

Have 

Nat: you picked up any hobbies or are you doing anything completely different that you weren't expecting to do apart from, you know, spending time in the pub with 70 to 90 year old men? Not yet, 

Gemma: but I'm in the process of looking at buying a kiln and a pottery wheel to [01:14:00] start making pottery. So yeah, that's that's the next step.

Nat: Yeah. Yes, my fiancée Saskia was talking about that the other day, but she's the kind of person that You know, we'll go to anything and then she'll be totally inspired. And she'll be like, I want to do that. I'm going to do that. Okay. So we went to the, you can see the picture behind me here. Went to the Lord of the Rings experience here in New Zealand, kind of yesterday, tour and things.

And there was a woman who I had a passion for making these weird and wonderful creatures. And Saskia was like, I want to do that. That looks great. I want to do that. So it's another thing to add to the list of you know, amazing, weird and wacky and creative hobbies that there are out there. But I think sometimes it's just great to pick something up new and just kind of, it opens your brain up, doesn't it?

It makes it work in a different way. 

Chris: I'd also say in a [01:15:00] way, although you've been here for a year well, two points to throw in that have just sprung to mind, actually, one is it's still in a way slightly early days because you're still looking to buy a property and you sort of got a certain way. So that's, I guess, occupied a bit of time and you're not fully, fully settled.

And then the other thing, which is a completely random thing that just came to mind, you said to me back in October, so just a couple of months ago that you missed London for the first time. Do you remember what the context for that was? 

Gemma: So, it had been my birthday, and me and my neighbor here had decided to go out into Lancaster.

And It was the first time that I was actually going out, out down here, you know, like not just going to the local pub. It was the first time I was going out somewhere where there was going to be like bars and nightclubs. And the two of us tottled up into Lancaster and it was dead. It was just, there was nobody around whatsoever.

I think we just timed it wrong. There'd been a festival on the week before and then there was a [01:16:00] big festival going on the week after as well. And I think we just got our weeks wrong and it was, you know. Last week of the month, I think everyone was probably skint and we went up and we had dinner and we were like some of the only people in the restaurant and then we went to a cocktail bar and again we were like the only people in and then we went somewhere else and in the end we ended up getting back and getting into a car and looping and just driving around Lancaster looking for where the people were because it was just 

Chris: Did you have Dr.

Dre on the CD player in the windows down?

Gemma: And we ended up coming back to the village and just trying to go back to the local pub, but they'd closed as well. And it was just this total disaster of an evening that I'd been like really gearing up for and really looking forward to. And Incidentally, she then went out in Lancaster again a couple of weekends later and said it was packed and she had this [01:17:00] amazing, amazing weekend.

So I think we just timed it wrong, but yeah, I think that the one thing that I have struggled with up here is Going out, because the village that I live in is, is quite you'd have to drive to go anywhere, really, and the whole taxis don't really bring people back to the village where I am. So I think it's, that's the one thing that I've missed is going out out, but again, I never used to do it when I was in London, really, anymore anyway, so I think if I can just go down to London every so often for a night out, then I've got the best balance, really.

Chris: You have to try Kendal, I've had a few nights out there recently. 

Gemma: Yeah, and I'm sure Lancaster on another night, like I have heard really good things about, about Lancaster too, 

Chris: but. We don't have Uber up north, yet. We do have roads. 

Gemma: We don't, you can't, I can't get pizza [01:18:00] delivered to my door either, which is that was a difficult, difficult thing.

So I start, I started using my freezer since I've moved up here, buy pizzas and leave them in my freezer, but yeah, in London, I had a supermarket at the end of my road, so I never bought food, I never had food in, you just buy as you go, whereas here, that's been an adjustment, like, having to, having to shop and have a full fridge has been a bit of a difference.

Chris: Yeah, I would agree with that actually, that's an interesting insight, which is I was almost eating better in London because as you say, every day I was commuting and so every day on my way home from work, I was going past the, it was a co op that was at the end of my street. So you'd nip in and get a stir fry or something.

You know, hopefully reasonably healthy and really easy to cook as well. And yeah, once I'm up here. Shopping became the bane of my life. That's why I keep banging on about gusto. I'm definitely getting sponsored by them on that. But yeah, I do gusto now [01:19:00] because otherwise you've got to drive to supermarket and proper first world problem.

But yeah, so that's an interesting point. Actually. I think I ate better in London from a health perspective than I was doing up here to the start of the meal box kits. 

Gemma: Have you ever lived in London, Nat? 

Nat: I am originally born in London, North London, and then moved to Southwest London, Greater London, Kingston area till I was about 11, then I moved to Scotland for the rest of my life.

So, kind of actually originally from London, but never lived there as an adult, so You know, I've been there a lot for work, you know, for my career, I'd go we've got an office in the city of London at work. So I'd go in, you know, so I'd see the culture, but. That's completely different to living it as an adult.

So, yeah, 

Gemma: I think actually just talking about [01:20:00] dipping, just dipping into London. That's just reminded me of the first time that I went back, which was in the March. It was about three months after I'd left originally. And I don't think I was quite. So, the last year or so before I left London, I had this, I had anxiety, which I was really struggling with.

And within three weeks of living up here, the anxiety had just gone. It just disappeared, just went. And I think it was from just that constant, like, hustle and bustle. The constant, lack of processing of information, really. And I didn't feel ready to go back when I went back in the march, and I was feeling really anxious getting off the train.

And actually, as soon as I got there, I felt like I was almost floating above everything. I could feel all of that tension and hyperness, but I wasn't getting [01:21:00] sucked into it, because I knew I would be swooping back out again. And I think that was Quite a nice experience for me to feel but I wonder actually is Somebody who's not lived there in their adult life.

Is that something that you feel when you go into London? Do you feel can you feel that sort of hyperactivity going on? Do you feel like you get dragged into it or do you feel like you're kind of just skimming above the top of it? Or do you not feel any of that at 

Nat: all? So it's a good question. I know what you're talking about as well.

I I call that well, there's a couple of things that the feeling that I get when I'm jumping from task to task task in my job. So it was kind of email, phone call, email, do a lot, you know, speak to a colleague, blah, blah, repeat for hundreds of times a day. I'd kind of get a buzzy feeling. So. Kind of think it's some dopamine or kind of one of the other [01:22:00] drugs the brain body releases when you're doing these activities.

And so actually I had a very physical reaction to these things, you know, become quite hyped in the day and my brain would be just looking for something, my attention span became quite poor, just be looking for the next thing to do constantly until I sort of crash and burn. Usually, you know, six or seven o'clock and my body would just kind of pack in at that point.

So it's quite a physical thing. When I went to London definitely just generally, I, I think I spoke, I maybe spoke about it earlier, I spoke about it, but The other day with someone is you get off the train from outside London or you get the plane down and I remember one time I went on the subway and this guy with I think it was either plaster cast on his like leg or his arm just smashed past me on the way down the escalator, like getting, so he had, you know, some kind of limb in a plaster [01:23:00] cast, but he still wanted to go much quicker than I was dawdling.

But what I noticed was within two days, I was the same as him. I was trying to go around rushing around just as quickly as everyone else. You start off for the first half a day walking at your normal pace that you would in the rest of, I feel like, where I was at home. And then by the time you've, 24 hours have passed, the next day you're kind of, you're rushing around.

You're just, you've joined. So it's, it's pervasive. It's, You become kind of what you're seeing on the ground. You just assimilate to everybody else. That's what I found anyway, for some reason. So Gemma, I was just interested to hear a bit more about how the anxiety like manifests itself. What did you actually feel when you, like, went to London, for example?

Gemma: Similar to, it was similar to what you were saying yourself, actually, about, you know, your working day. It was that I was just sort of getting to the point where I [01:24:00] felt like I was crashing and burning and I would just have these like heart palpitations and I would just be like, well, I'd get worried about absolutely everything.

Because I felt anxious, I was worrying about everything, and that was then, the worry was then feeding the anxiety, and it was just this vicious cycle, and it could be anything, it was any little thing that I'd be worried about, you know, that phone call that I've got to make, or, you know, that appointment that I've got to go on, or, you know, that person that I'm meeting socially, everything just became a worry and stressful, when it didn't need to be, and I, after, you know, Almost every one of those instances, I'd think that was nowhere near as bad as what I thought, what was I worrying about?

Nat: And did you feel like you were worried in retrospect about maybe how you'd come across to other people? Was that a worry that you had? Because I've heard that and had that myself a little bit at some points where you kind of [01:25:00] come off a call and two hours later you think, Was I a bit rude on that call two hours ago?

And it's kind of a little bit irrational because you probably haven't been, and to be honest, Probably the person doesn't care anyway. 

Gemma: Yeah, there was that. I mean, I get that all the time. Does everybody? Does everybody not? Maybe I'm just rude. I don't know. Maybe I just 

Chris: Maybe you care what other people think.

Gemma: Yeah, yeah. Maybe I'm a people 

Nat: pleaser. No, it's just how I think you answered it. And I made a statement. You answered it about how the anxiety came across. Personally, my experience was it was just quite a surprisingly physical experience. Which is kind of Think other people, maybe you haven't experienced it, find it hard to relate to.

So you think, well, how can thinking about things then lead to physical things, but It definitely does, well it did for me, because again, I think it would, the, you know, I can't remember all the, in fact I saw it the other day, but I can't remember the [01:26:00] dopamine and serotonin and all these different drugs that are effectively being released when you are having these experiences which are caused by your brain.

And then that will actually do something to your body and create, like you said, for you, it was the heart palpitations. For me, I had like a heavy, I'd describe it as like a heavy chest, like a kind of Get that sensation, but people just get varying degrees of it, but I definitely can empathize with your experience of it's sort of never seemed as bad as it, you know, your brain would think about all these ways that it often actually I'm kind of rambling here, but often those things that we're worrying about, they're completely ill defined.

So actually that's what someone taught me once is to take the. what you're worried about. So let's say you have a general anxiety about going [01:27:00] to meet my boss on Wednesday, whatever it is, that generalized anxiety will not be defined. So actually, if you, and this is why talking to a friend helps, because if you go and speak to a friend and say, you know, I'm a bit anxious about meeting my boss on Wednesday.

And your friend goes, well, why? Then you have to say, Oh, well, I'm, I'm worried because I didn't do this job as well as I could have last Thursday. And they say, Oh, well, why not? And you just start, anyway, you start going through it. And because of the conversation, you define what your anxieties are. You then really rationalize them.

So you're saying, you know, you've, you realize actually they've all got a rational explanation. It's not usually anywhere near as bad as you think it is. The time you've had the conversation, the anxiety is pretty much gone. And someone taught me to do this without having to have the conversation, just kind of form of journaling, which is just, if you've got anxieties in your head, they're not defined, write them [01:28:00] down, you challenge them.

Is it true? The first question you ask yourself is, is it true? Is it true that you should be, is it the right emotional response to be fearful or to be worried or whatever? So yeah, I haven't been doing that since I kind of stepped back from full time work. I mean, seemingly haven't really needed to do that as much.

But I think having that high pressure job having a lot of tasks to do in the day creates that sense of stress. And then things kick out. So those things that shouldn't be making us anxious, they do make us anxious, etc. But I wonder I'll turn this into a question now. From your experience, 

Chris: I just think it's interesting that you said you used to do more of that and haven't had to since you change your sort of surroundings and lifestyle and basically distressed and that's de stressed rather than distressed.

And that's exactly what Gemma was saying before, like three weeks or was it three weeks or three, three weeks of moving up here. that, that kind of disappeared [01:29:00] for you as well. But yeah, sorry, back, back to you 

Nat: Nat. Was that your experience and did you, like, did a bit of that come back, I suppose, when you went to London, were you reminded of it or?

Gemma: When I went back just this time, now, there was A situation that I was worried and feeling anxious about and I spoke to my mum about it actually and then When I got down to London, I was worried about nothing And and I said to to mum like I don't know what I was worried about I was worried about nothing But I I think I worked myself up into that state because psychologically I knew I was coming back to London and I didn't know How I was going to respond to being back in London.

So I had started fretting about Every silly little thing that I didn't need to but yeah, it was a it was an old familiar feeling that came back Which I'd not really had since I've been up here. In fact since I've been up here I care a lot less about what other people think and I think for me, that's that's a real [01:30:00] positive 

Chris: If you had one piece of advice for one and only listener, what would it be?

Gemma: Don't buy a car in December.

Why? When I moved up here, when I moved it was December, and obviously December's a heavy financial month anyway, and then I decided to buy a car, so then my car tax, my MOT, the service, everything happens in December. And that's, that would be my advice. But no That's 

Nat: the most practical piece of advice I think we've ever, we're trying to be deeper meaningful Gemma.

Come on 

Chris: You have to get on some monthly payments instead of doing this whole year up front like stop being financially responsible And I 

Gemma: think it would just be The whole nothing is forever, you know, it's it's never going to be the right time. So make the move and If you don't like it, you can always go back.

Life changes. If you don't like the change, you can re change it. [01:31:00] 

Chris: Well, thank you very much for joining us. 

Gemma: Thanks for having 

Nat: me on. Yeah, thanks. Good to, good to hear the story. And I think Chris and I, when we spoke kind of bit about our, Life stories, we found it was a little bit like a therapy session.

So I wouldn't be surprised if through the next few hours, your brain's kind of running through, you know, whatever you've said and what we've said, but that's just completely natural.

Chris: Hey, it's Solos, where we help people in their thirties, forties and fifties to rediscover themselves and meet new people. If you'd like to find out more about Adventure Solos events, visit AdventureSolos.com, that's AdventureSolos.com, where you're very welcome to stay in touch by joining the mailing list.

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