EP012 - Pregnancy and becoming a first-time Mum (with Gee)

Gee met her partner Paul through the dating app Bumble. She found out she was pregnant within a few months, and whilst most people were pleased, her father's reaction wasn't what she expected. We discuss hormones, breastfeeding, full-moon babies, birthing plans, how to pick a midwife, right through to travelling with a newborn and trying to maintain a sense of self.

Gee had just moved back from five years in Uganda and found herself locked down in the UK in 2021. She bought a house in the North of England in the July and joined us in August for the Yorkshire 3 Peaks Weekend as a way to meet new people.

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Gee joined us for the Yorkshire 3 Peaks Weekend
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Transcript

Gee: [00:00:00] So you can read one book that says one thing, but it might not necessarily apply to you. I definitely think we have values and we were talking about the other day about being conscious and conscious parents and instilling. What we think are important values. So like, for example, every night Paul gets home probably about half five, six o'clock, I finish up work then, and then we all cook together and we all sit down together and we all have a meal together.

And that is without a doubt, the highlight of my day.

Nat: Hello, it's Nat here, your co host at Life Changes with Adventure Solos. [00:01:00] Adventure Solos help people in their 30s, 40s and 50s rediscover themselves and meet new people. In this episode of Life Changes, two blokes, that's me and Chris Speak to a woman, that's Georgina, or G as she is known, about all things pregnancy and motherhood related.

G is an extraordinary, ordinary person, who's had an adventurous life. G tells us her story, from working in Uganda, to coming back to a new role in the UK. Going on over 200 dates, searching for true love, and then finding it and becoming pregnant in under 6 months. We take the opportunity to ask her what it was like speaking to her employer when she became pregnant about different parenting styles What it was like getting back into her passion such as running after baby B was born and their amazing trip with a very young Baby traveling around the west coast of America.

We talk about the birth of baby B and what labor is actually like Spoiler alert [00:02:00] apparently it's sore and for some like a marathon We ask, do the drugs work? We delve into debates we didn't even know existed, such as the breastfeeding versus formula milk debate, and how many toys a kid should have. Stick around for the answer.

And if that wasn't enough, we hear her funny story of going into labor and her partner and dad to be pulls noise cancelling headphones and multitasking abilities. If you'd like to learn more about Adventure Solos events, please visit AdventureSolos.com and enter your details to sign up to the mailing list.

Chris: Today we're chatting to G, and G, I was just trying to think, so you came on the Yorkshire Three Peaks event, but that would have been nearly two and a half years ago, is that right? It was, 

Gee: I think, 2020. 2020? Or was it 2021? 

Chris: Yeah, because there [00:03:00] would have been Covid. 

Gee: Yeah, because I didn't move back up until 2021.

So 

Chris: that would have been August, because my mum helps out with that event and her birthday's in August, so I know that that's in August. 

Gee: Yeah, and your sister was there as well, 

Chris: wasn't she? So she might have, I think on that one, maybe she walked the first hill and then stopped off at the checkpoint with my mum and they went for lunch.

Gee: It was such a great day. The whole weekend actually was really, really good because I'd only just moved back. So I was kind of looking for different things to do and he popped up and I had no idea what to expect. And it was the most random great group of people. And then I stayed in touch with a couple of people and then ended up going and running a marathon on the Isle of Mull with Carolyn.

Can you remember Carolyn? Which was really fun. So yeah, it was great. I really enjoyed that. I would love to come along on another one if I ever find the time. 

Chris: Yeah, exactly. Which probably brings us on to our main topic. Well, you said about when you moved up. So go on, tell us about that. Where were you and where are you now?

Gee: So I was, well, during COVID, when COVID [00:04:00] hit, I was in London, but I was living in Uganda at the time. And I've been out there for five years, I'd been in London before that as well, and COVID hit, got locked down in London, and I kind of decided, you know what, I'm ready to move back now. I wasn't entirely sure what I wanted to do or where I was going to be.

And, but I did know that I wanted to be near a home, and I was brought up in County Durham. My parents were up here, up this way. So I sold my flat in London, moved up, lived with my mum for a while. And then there was another lockdown. Yeah, I think it was another lockdown. So I found myself without a house with my mum in lockdown and was like, Oh God, this is a real low point.

And then I had to kind of work out where I wanted to be. And I think sometimes when you can be anywhere in the world, it's quite difficult to narrow your choices down and your priorities. Anyway, I ended up finding a beautiful little [00:05:00] cottage and a village in North Yorkshire. Which is where I am now, in 2021.

So, I, yeah, I moved in here in the July, I think it was. And then, yeah, met you in the August. Um. And basically in Uganda, what I was doing was we were running a plastic waste recycling factory that we started in 2017. I just asked it with a friend out there. And the idea was basically to pay individuals in the community for their plastic waste.

We would take that and then recycle it into products. that you can use for construction and the built environment and it's still going today with one of the biggest recyclers now in Uganda but most importantly it's created a huge amount of jobs for people in very rural communities that are typically marginalized or don't have income opportunities.

So that [00:06:00] is one aspect of what I do but then when I came back to the UK I needed to find a job here. And before I'd moved to Uganda, I worked in finance and investment. And my boss from my old firm called me up and said, look, we know you've kind of been very much on the forefront of sustainability. And through COVID, we've become increasingly focused on sustainability.

How'd you feel about coming back to work for us? And at the time, I was like, oh, is it ever a good idea to go back to a firm where you've been before? And I'd kind of been on such a journey, if that's the right term, while I'd lived out in Uganda. I was like a very different person than I had been five years previously.

Anyway, he, I said, look, if you're serious about it, then Fine. But if it's kind of just greenwashing, then I'm not gonna come back. And I ended up going back. So I went back to the investment for that. I originally worked for, but now I oversee sustainability. [00:07:00] So I now work three days from home and then one day in London, which is really lovely balance.

And I think having run my own thing and done my own thing for five years, it was actually really refreshing to get back into. Um, the corporate or more corporate world. I mean, we're only a small business, so it's not like, you know, going to work for a Deloitte or someone like that, but I, and I, I really do enjoy it.

And I'm, yeah, having been self employed and all the ups and downs and the stress and anxiety, as you know, Chris, I don't know whether you run your own thing or not now, but there's a huge amount of security. And then particularly when you have a child, right. So then. Be able to know exactly how much money is coming in at the end of every month is very reassuring.

Chris: We could chat about the Uganda stuff for ages as well, but the reason why we've got you on the call today is to chat about motherhood and pregnancy and becoming a mom, basically, I think so. So you've got a daughter. Chris and I need 

Nat: [00:08:00] schooled. Yeah. That's why you're on Georgina. I was going to say for anyone who is a mum or has kids out there, Chris and I don't, then sorry maybe for some of the ignorance that Chris and I are going to stew on this.

Gee: But I think it's really refreshing to have Two men that have a podcast actually want a woman on to talk about motherhood because I was under the assumption. What's this all about? I know, I know. It's my bias, obviously, that Nat was a woman when Chris first said, do you want to come on to the podcast? And I was like, what two men?

So yeah, I think it's very refreshing. 

Chris: So set the scene for us then. So you've got a 

Gee: daughter. So yeah, I have a little daughter called Beatrix. We call her B and she is nearly one years old. So, up until, well, until I moved home, really, I had been on all of the apps. I'd been on Bumble, I'd been on Hinge. I was talking to Paul the [00:09:00] other day, and I think I've probably been on 200 dates.

I mean, I'd really, really worn them out. 

Chris: Wait, I'm just doing the maths behind that. That's one a week for four years solid.

Nat: That's half of what you've done, Chris. 

Gee: I mean, yeah, I knew every app inside out, I think, and I've been single for a long, long time. And when I came back to the UK, I think anyone who's traveled a lot or worked abroad often has a similar. story and that they come back and it's the return of coming back is a lot harder than when you go away and kind of trying to find your group of people and it's just difficult to click with people sometimes when you've had very different experiences to them.

So I lived in a village in the middle of rural Uganda for five years and then to come back and be back to normality as I previously knew it was quite tricky. Anyway, I then thought, [00:10:00] okay, I'll give it one last try, so I signed up to Bumble on New Year's Day. of 2022 and matched with Paul, who is now my partner.

And then five months. 

Nat: Paul's the hero in this story, I think. 

Gee: He really is. Yeah, he really is. And then five months later, I was in Ibiza with my mum on holiday. And I said, Mum, I think I could be pregnant, you know. And she said, well, do you think you should go and get a test? And I said, yeah, I probably should go and get a test.

And I've previously been told by doctors, I'd had a lot of gynecological problems. And I've been told it would be very, very difficult for me to have children. So I hadn't had periods for 10 years. So in my mind, I kind of resigned myself to the fact that, you know, I might not have children. So I was saying to Paul, you know, love babies, but it's going to be really difficult for us.

and then went to a pharmacy in Ibiza, as you do, and after five months found out I was pregnant. [00:11:00] So I then had to FaceTime Paul and say, Surprise! I'm pregnant! Wahoo! 

Nat: It wasn't surprise, remember me, from, from that. Yeah, yeah, 

Gee: yeah, yeah, yeah, it wasn't that. And he had just bought a house, and so, I don't know, our worlds were turned upside down, but the wonderful thing is there wasn't a moment where we ever thought, you know.

We didn't even have a question, we didn't even have a conversation about, oh gosh, what should we do? It was just very much like, oh my god, this is the most amazing thing. Particularly when you've kind of, yeah, gone through a lot of your 20s and early 30s, thinking you'd never have a baby. And so how old were you at this 

Chris: point?

I 

Gee: was 

Chris: 35. When you were a kid, did you think Like, I think I just assumed that I would be, uh, a dad or an adult, like an adult one day, still waiting for it to happen. But you know what I mean? Like, I guess it's almost like the American dream you were sold, but I just assumed as a kid, like as a, I don't know what year old, 10, 12 year old, [00:12:00] that you would become older.

You become an adult, you become a husband and you become a dad. And I guess that's not, not, is it? So did you, did you just think or assume that or. Don't know. Yeah, 

Gee: very much so. I mean, I think you have your life planned out in some sense, where you think how your life is going to go. You know, you're going to go and you're going to go to university and then get a degree and get a job and then meet someone and then have a nice house with a white picket fence and have a few babies and life will be wonderful.

Um, but then along the way, life throws you curveballs and I think the more you veer off the path. That you think you're going to get on the more interesting life can be, but the harder it can be because it's not a certain. And I think particularly with relationships and, you know, fertility, particularly for women, yeah, it can be really challenging.

And we live in a very different world now than what our parents. lived in when life was a lot simpler and [00:13:00] people didn't go off and do all of these wonderful things. 

Chris: Yeah, I think that's a really good point, isn't it? Like my parents, I mean, they must've got married in their early to mid 20s, sorry. And that's just what you did.

They weren't like high school sweethearts, but they would have been relatively young and it's still bamboozles me now. So I'm 41, but by the time. When my mum was my age, so when my mum was 41, not only did she have three kids, but I'd also grown up and left home. And now I'm just like, what the hell? Like you say, in a generation, things have changed sort of quite quickly.

And, and yeah, I guess for a lot of reasons, but a lot of them are probably societal as much as anything, aren't they? 

Gee: Yeah, and I wonder, you know, in 10, 20 years time, what things will look like, whether people will have kind of retreated a bit and people will have babies earlier again, um, because in some ways I do think our generation have screwed [00:14:00] ourselves over in some sense in terms of we were told we could have everything, we've gone out, we've got everything, um, but then a lot of those core Not values, but you know, the family, the home, we might not have necessarily 

Chris: achieved those.

I think that's true. And trying to get on the housing market isn't easy for people anymore either. Like I think we're getting onto the housing market like a decade and a half later than the generation before, I think at least, if not a couple of generations, sorry, a couple of decades later. 

Gee: And I think because you don't necessarily get on the housing market at a younger age, obviously when you have a house it ties you down to some degree because you've got your mortgage to pay and your bills to pay, whereas if you don't have that you're a lot lighter on your feet so you can go off and do all of these different things and different experiences, but if someone said to me now, you know, do you have any regrets that you went off to Uganda for five years?

And do you wish you'd settled down earlier or met? So, I mean, [00:15:00] haven't met anyone earlier, so it wouldn't have happened, but you know, I wouldn't have changed my experiences for the world. And I'm very lucky that I was still able to have a baby at 35. 

Chris: I think that's sorry. I'm jumping in a lot, but I think this is really interesting because I think that's it in a way.

It doesn't sound like you'd quite given up, but obviously you'd had some difficulties as well. So maybe you were thinking it might not happen. And I do think, oh, certainly that's my experience. And, and people, I think dismiss it when you're a bloke sometimes, but you, you sort of do find yourself like now I'm single.

I'm 41. And it's like, people say, oh, it doesn't matter for men. Cause you can have it at whatever age, but I don't want to be mistaken for the granddad in the playground. And, and I want to be like. Sort of young enough, if you will, to be able to interact and play with my kid. And even if I have a kid like sort of today or tomorrow kind of thing, like I would be 60 when they're 18.

And so that people, I think, I think this is true for men and women sort of [00:16:00] have our generation, I guess is my point, but it's not much less significant for men, or I don't feel because there is still that like slight tick in time. Thing around it. So, yeah, I I'm really pleased for you that you've been able to, as you say, we've been the easy jet generation.

We've gone away, traveled, done this different stuff. You lived in Uganda and it's lovely that you've then sort of now doing the grown up thing of buying a house, meeting someone, having a kid. 

Gee: Yeah, and I think, I think it's a lot easier for women to talk about this stuff than men, and it's really interesting to hear it from a man's perspective because, yeah, in terms of having children or challenges, meeting someone that you want to have a baby with, often just, you hear it from the female perspective and, particularly around fertility, so, You're right in saying like, it sounds as if you hadn't given up fully.

So I'd been and I'd actually looked at getting my eggs frozen just in case there was a chance. And then you realize like the huge cost implications with that. And I'd also [00:17:00] considered very briefly. So go on, what sort of cost? Oh, so it's 10 grand just to freeze your eggs. I had to pay three grand. Just to go and basically get a check to see if I was ovulating and whether my hormone levels were right, et cetera, et cetera.

And then I decided, I was like, do you know what, if I don't have a baby naturally, like I'm, I've come to accept that that will be okay. But it's also, I'd considered it very briefly, whether I would have a child on my own. And again, I came to the kind of realization that I didn't want a baby on my own. I wanted a baby with someone, whereas.

If a man said, okay, I really want a baby on my own. I think there's quite a lot of stigma attached to that. And people might think, Oh, that's quite strange. Whereas if a woman says, I want a baby on my own, it's more accepted. Yeah, 

Chris: that's interesting. That has like literally never really crossed my mind. I guess if you decided to go down that route, I would probably be defaulting more to like fostering or adoption, but yeah, to actually have your [00:18:00] own child.

I guess never really even thought of that as being an option. So, yeah, interesting. 

Gee: Can I ask Nat, do you want children? 

Nat: Not sure. Not, not being the kind of person who's kind of sees it as integral to my life and certainly I think I've got some kind of maybe hang ups about it, but yeah, don't, don't know.

Still, I think, still haven't made up our minds.

Chris: Have you had those conversations though, Nat, and where did they result? Yeah, 

Nat: yeah, I think we're, we have them, I suppose every now and again, and just kind of keep reassessing the situation. But, yeah, I mean, similar to what you were saying. G, that time, and Eucharist as well, like time kind of moves on, doesn't it?

So that creates its own pressure. So it's like, it kind of feels like it maybe goes from [00:19:00] sort of hypothetical, and you've still got a decision. I suppose, it's a weird one, isn't it? It's like you've still got the decision, but ultimately one day, probably you won't have the decision. And you'll have missed the boat.

So do you have to, at some point, if you make It's almost like if you make the decision you can take steps to make sure you obviously don't have kids and then if you do nothing, then you're probably likely just to not have a kid, aren't you? And then that'll be the decision made. I'm sort of trying to say that You sometimes don't have to make the decision, do you?

Gee: Yeah, I think we were very fortunate in that way, in terms of the decision was made for us, and we've chatted about it and said, you know, I wonder, like, if this, say, we hadn't fallen pregnant until now, would we now be trying for a baby? And You know, the additional pressure that that can bring with it as well.

So the decision in some [00:20:00] respect was taken out of our house. I mean, 

Nat: there's quite a few things we could talk about G, but in terms of spring to my mind and the relationship path that you went along, I'm interested to explore that and how you see your journey looking back now, from my perspective, I'm a big kind of believer in and think it's RuPaul's.

If you don't love yourself, ain't nobody else going to love you. And people really understanding themselves before they can find someone. But everyone has like different paths and different journeys towards finding someone. So, there's the reflection on that, which I'd love you to talk about. And then also, yeah, learning more about the, the sort of pregnancy journey, if I can call it that.

And going back to that moment when you learnt that you were, you were pregnant. But I think there's quite a lot to get into there. Yeah, so 

Gee: I think touching on the relationship part first, interesting. I fully agree with you. You have to very much love yourself. Um, [00:21:00] before you can get into a meaningful relationship, I would say I think it's quite easy to fall into a relationship.

So just before I moved to Uganda, I met someone and I was with them for a couple of years. It was long distance, and then we were both very much on different path and then. Kind of when I met Paul, everything just seemed to click, and it sounds so cliche, and I'm a huge believer in fate, and there's a series of events, let's say, that's happened since I moved to Uganda, that makes me think, hang on, there is a lot more going on here than we think, um, and Although in your mind you think, okay, I know it will happen when it's supposed to happen, etc, etc.

It can be really difficult to hold on to that hope sometimes. But when I met Paul, yeah, it just felt right. It felt, we've both been on quite similar journeys. So he'd worked abroad, he'd been in Switzerland, he'd been in Australia, and he'd come back home to Yorkshire as well. [00:22:00] And then, I would say, actually, the year I fell pregnant, so just last year, and all the way up to me being born, our relationship was great, and still is great, but I would say the most challenging part about having a baby wasn't so much the baby and, The, you know, the way your life is turned upside down.

For us, I think it was how quickly our relationship changed. Because in some sense, in the first year, you're still in honeymoon period. But then all of a sudden, there's just all of these different elements that get thrown into the mix. And that was really, really challenging. But then speaking to a lot of my friends, you know, I say, Oh, what was bigger, getting married or having a baby?

And they're like, Oh my God, having a baby without a doubt, like your relationship. Yeah, changes overnight and no one can foresee how that is going to play out, but we have just been incredibly fortunate that everything has worked. And [00:23:00] I'm fully aware that, you know, the likelihood of meeting someone having a baby in five months and then being, we're still being in a very happy relationship.

Yeah. The odds are very low. So we've been very, very lucky in that respect. And. I mean, in terms of how it would like to play out, we would love to get married at some point. I think it would be lovely for Bea for us to be married. I do think that makes a difference for a child, but there's no rush in terms of when that will be.

I think the biggest commitment you can have with someone is to have a baby. So, yeah, so sometimes, but I mean, going back to what you were saying, Chris, in terms of how you think life is gonna play out, I was very much, yeah. Oh yeah, I'll get married and then I'll have babies. And the fact that I fell pregnant, my father didn't agree with it at all.

And sadly I don't talk to him. 

Chris: Really? What do you mean he didn't agree with it? Didn't agree 

Gee: with what, so my father's quite traditional, so, and I didn't know it was gonna go one of two ways, [00:24:00] and I told him. And my dad is a word, a man of many, many words and he just had no words whatsoever. And then, yeah, basically a couple of months later, he sent me a long letter, long three page letter, writing out all of the reasons why I shouldn't be a mother and how he doesn't think I'll be able to look after a child.

And then I haven't heard from him since. Wow. 

Chris: Sorry, just processing that, but wow. Like, because you weren't married or just because he didn't. didn't, as you say, didn't agree with it. 

Gee: I think there were a number of reasons. One was the fact that we met quite quickly and got pregnant. One, the reason that we, yeah, we weren't married.

We weren't living together at the time. And he also doesn't believe in women working and he thinks the man should be the main provider. I mean, you're probably, I'm probably painting a certain picture of my dad here. And so for all of those reasons together, he was [00:25:00] just not in favor of bringing a baby into this world, basically, which is really sad.

Nat: And what did your mum say? Are your parents still together? 

Gee: No, well the ironic thing is my mum and dad separated about 20 years ago because my father had a number of affairs and had a long term affair, let's say. So they then went through a divorce which was sadly acrimonious. So my mum was really upset because Yeah, I think she was quite heartbroken actually, because she was like, I can't believe you're having to go through this, especially when you're pregnant, but I was quite fortunate, because when my mum and dad got divorced, it was, it was really difficult, and I was about 18 at the time, so I'd kind of processed a lot of that.

And because I'd done it once, I didn't feel like I had to do it again. So it sounds awful, but it hasn't really impacted me in the way it could have 

Chris: done. Yeah. It's nice to hear it in a way that didn't impact you a second time, especially during [00:26:00] that, I guess, a critical time. But that just blows my mind that even.

It's like, I feel like it's not his place to disagree, but even if he does feel a certain way, then to not want to be in your life and your child's life, I don't know, it just blows my mind. But yeah, 

Gee: I think it would blow most people's minds really. 

Chris: But it happens, doesn't it? Families are weird. Yeah.

Families are 

Gee: very 

Chris: weird. My mum, so I have an aunt and we don't see her as in, we don't really know where she is. I think she's in Wales, but even we're now in touch with my cousin again, my mum sort of reunited with my cousin about. I don't know, seven, eight years ago, something like that. And she's got kids now.

She, even her own daughter doesn't know where her mum lives. She's not around. And, and she fell out with obviously the whole side of the family and no one really knows why. I mean, there must be mental health problems. But even like my granddad, so her [00:27:00] dad died and she didn't know it had happened. And didn't go to the funeral and all this sort of stuff and just like, it's weird, isn't it?

Families are weird. 

Gee: Yeah, so weird. And you never know what happens behind 

Nat: closed doors. I'm always interested in this and what, like, Chris says, what Mr Chris says about myself as Where people come from and how they're formed, etc. And I think all three of us are from divorced families, if you can call it that.

Like, you know, not nucleated or whatever you call it, families. And I'm interested in how that shades your perspective in relation to having kids. Was that something, did you feel like you had to get over something? Or, you know, the sort of, the textbook thing, I think, is that if you've You come from a divorced family, you might not have had that kind of modeling for a happy, you know, dynamic and therefore you're thinking, hmm, I'm not sure I definitely want to have kids [00:28:00] because what happens if this all goes wrong?

I think that's, that's, you know, sometimes happens. So I'm wondering whether there was any of that. Play with you, whether you just always thought, no, no, just, I know these things happen and just want to have kids. 

Gee: I, good question. I think that deep down, I'd always wanted to have kids. I think I'd convinced myself that I would be content if I wouldn't, didn't have kids and I would be very content without them.

In relation, in relation to I went through some really dark times. I think when my parents got divorced around when I was around 18 and I don't think a lot of the effects I saw until a few years later as well, I think it's more how it impacts your ability to have relationships. And I think you were talking Chris in the podcast that you did about boarding school [00:29:00] and.

I went to boarding school when I was 10, and I think that also has a huge impact on relationships, because you don't see the day to day life in some respects, apart from your holidays, of what a relationship looks like. But I'm also very cognizant of the fact that You can have a nuclear family and two parents might not be divorced but it can be a very, very unhappy household.

And I think, if anything, I learned so much from my parents getting divorced and saw what I didn't want and what I wanted to create instead. So I'm not saying perfect by any means, but I think you learn a lot either way from your parents, regardless. So Yeah, I don't think I ever, I've ever thought, no, I don't want to have children.

I have thought I don't want to get married in case everything goes wrong. And I think there'll always be a tiny, tiny part of me that worries about that. But then I think if you didn't think about that slightly, [00:30:00] you're looking at life through very, very tinted glasses. 

Chris: Yeah, I think that's a really I know it's slightly cynical, that's how I feel about it, but maybe, probably for the same reasons, because I saw my parents get divorced and you know, statistically most marriages end in divorce, but I have friends, well, I have friends in very long term relationships like, you know, 15, 20 years and neither of them are married to their other halves.

And I think some of that is like, it's very easy to go in and be like, Oh, we'll get married. Cause that's just what people do when you're in love. But without thinking of some of the actual practical stuff behind it. And I've not looked into it really either. So I don't know either, but they're just against it sort of in principle.

And I think I'm not that fussed. Go on. Oh, sorry. Now we should let you have a chat. 

Nat: Yeah, I'm getting married this year. So I just left it till I was 40. Because I have, I think in my head, I'm like, I've got less time to fuck this up. You know, I can, I think I can probably [00:31:00] make it through 40 years. I got married at 20.

You know, I'm not sure 60 years, someone would have wanted to be with me for that long or a month. Fucked up along the way. So I also 

Gee: think now with divorce, I've got, I hope I'd never get divorced. I hope we are together for a long time, forever. But I think the way in which divorces now happy or very happen are very different to say when our parents got divorced, I don't think there's as much stigma around them.

I think parents with children put children more at the center of it. So I heard someone the other day. You know, rather than a child going from mum's house one week to dad's house the other, they have a family home, and it's actually the mum and dad that move out every week, so there's a lot more consistency.

Yeah, so I think in terms of kind of co parenting, we've moved on a lot, and you know, there's so much research out there to say what a detrimental impact divorce has on children that, and I think, Yeah, the way in which we go about [00:32:00] divorce now is very different. So I can't see what happened with our parents generation happening again with this generation.

To the same extent. Let's say we 

Chris: should probably move on to more cheerful stuff. , . Well, I dunno if it's cheerful or not, but it's Right. So you found out you're pregnant, you, you're back in the uk. Um, and yeah, go on. Tell us 

Gee: like, well then like, shit, we're having a baby. Yeah. , go on. Tell us, tell us what happened then.

Yeah. So. So yeah, so then you get back, so I was like, Oh my God, what do you do when you find out you're pregnant? So then called the, yeah, Google called the GP up and then you go and see the midwife, I think it was a midwife, not a doctor I saw. And then you get told that you have a 12 week scan. And you get told you can pay privately for a scan before those 12 weeks, I think it was at 10 weeks, where you can find out whether there are any genetic [00:33:00] abnormalities.

Down syndrome was one, I can't remember what the others were. And you can find out whether you want the sex of the baby at that scan as well. Oh really? Um. 10 weeks? Yeah. Wow. At 10 weeks. Yeah, which is amazing because they take your blood and they can tell from the mother's blood what sex the baby is, which blew my mind.

How many 

Nat: weeks were you pregnant or did you, do you know that or not? 

Gee: Yeah, I found seven weeks and I felt so guilty because I'd just lived my life normally, like normally non pregnant and I'd been drinking and eating all the wrong foods and I'd gone and I'd done a half marathon in the Lake District and felt so horrendous but obviously I had no idea why.

And then, so that, so we actually opted to pay for the 10 week scan because, because the risk goes up as you get older and when you're 35 you are. Not, it's like, it's, it's not a geriatric pregnancy. It's a word basically for old people, and they're [00:34:00] just a lot higher risk. And, who did that? I found out it was a girl.

Paul didn't want to find out. I did, so we tossed a coin and I won. And then You literally tossed a coin or did you just win? Yeah, literally tossed a coin before we went into the appointment. And then Yeah, we have the 12 week scan, and then, was it 16 week or 20 week scan? I can't even remember now. And my pregnancy was relatively easy.

I'm quite glad that I didn't find out until 7 weeks, because I think if I had, psychologically, I would have been like, oh god, I feel so sick. But I didn't, and yeah, I was very lucky with morning sickness. I kept really, really active, so I was going to the gym until I was 39 weeks. 

Chris: And, and sorry, help me with the math.

So people are pregnant for nine months. So how many weeks is that roughly? 

Gee: So actually it's near a 10 months. So 30, so the, you are what they call full term at 37 weeks and then anything between 37 weeks and 40 weeks, [00:35:00] that is kind of on time, if you like anything later than 40 weeks, that would be. The baby has been born late.

So yeah, a week up until the. She came out, I was at the gym, and I think that really helped from both mental health perspective and it also had a very easy birth, which from speaking to some friends isn't always the case. 

Nat: No, the, the having a child Um, let's just say, you know, later in life, I don't know how to say it there.

Obviously, I think when I researched it a few years ago, it was like, was it not? 34, 35. There are massive, like the kind of, you look at the graph and the risks seem to just go through the roof versus prior to that. And it really seems to be a kind of drop off. I don't know whether that's correct or not.

It's just, that's what I'd read at the time. So was it a big fear that you had that. No, something could be wrong with the child [00:36:00] or and there are other things that you can do to ward against that. Or is that just obviously to have the scan or was that a risk? To some extent, a risk you just have to take.

Yeah, 

Gee: definitely. I think part of the challenge is that you are bombarded with information nowadays. So there is so much information saying, yeah, the risks go sky high. Your fertility is just going to drop off a cliff when you reach a certain age. And I don't know what I would do if the results came back and said, you know, there is a genetical abnormality.

What would you like to do? I think that's a really difficult decision. And until you're in that position, you can't really form a view. 

Nat: Because they can test for certain things. Is that right? But not everything. 

Gee: And for me, it was more peace of mind, I think. More than anything, if we have another baby, whether I would do it again, I'm not sure.

I would definitely be more relaxed, as I'm sure every woman would be if for their second pregnancy, because everything is so new, and your body is going through so many changes, your [00:37:00] hormones are all over the place, and with that in the mix. you know, given that we hadn't necessarily planned to have her at the point at which we had her, you know, Paul is trying to sell his house, he's moving over here because he lived 45 minutes away, you're trying to, yeah, work out how life is going to look post baby, and all the logistics around it, from You know, from changing the house around to sorting out wills and thinking about, you know, worst case scenario, et cetera, et cetera.

Chris: Did you do that? Did you get your wills sorted and that? Because that sounds like something people go, Oh, we should do that. And then don't. So you actually did, did do it. 

Gee: Yeah. Well, luckily my mum is, um, a lawyer and her speciality is trusts and wills. So she's always been very much on it. And before I went to Uganda, I got it all sorted.

But, uh, that is obviously one implication. If you're not married, as soon as you're married. There's very different implications with your wills, but if you haven't, if you're not married, then, yeah, it looks very different. [00:38:00] So yeah, we had to get all of that sorted, and then, yeah, everything turned out fine.

Thankfully, both Paul and I are pretty chilled, so there wasn't too much stress, but it was still a lot to navigate moving in together. Selling a how, jobs, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. A lot 

Chris: of big life stuff aside from the whole like pregnancy. Am I going to have a kid kind of thing? Yeah, 

Gee: exactly. 

Chris: Being pregnant.

Well, I've heard of trimesters. Presumably there's three trimesters. Like, can you tell us a bit about what they are? And, and then also I'd be interested to hear, how did you generally feel going along? Like Yeah, I guess along the way, what was being pregnant 

Gee: like? Yeah, so now they say there's actually four trimesters.

So there's three trimesters during pregnancy, and then the 12 weeks after you've had the baby, that is like a fourth trimester, because your body is still going through so many changes. Um, so yeah, your first trimester is the first 12 weeks, and that is when morning sickness tends to be the worst, [00:39:00] and you're exhausted.

and your body is just like, Oh my God, what is going on? And then the second trimester, I felt really good. We went away, we went to Morocco and we went hiking in Morocco and that was probably the happiest or like least stressful part of the pregnancy. Cause you're just like in the flow of it. And you're like, we're getting really excited about everything.

And then I'm quite an impatient person. So the final trimester, the last 12 weeks for me were absolutely. Killer. Cause I was like, please, I just want this baby to be here, but that's also the fun time when you know, you do your antenatal classes and everything's getting a bit more real and nearer the date.

Um, and yeah, as I said, I felt really good throughout all of it. I kind of really took care of myself and then she was born. 

Chris: So you say about looking after yourself, you, you mentioned sort of going to the gym and keeping active. What else did, did you do or change or not 

Gee: change? Well, so I was a big runner [00:40:00] and a lot of people can run throughout their pregnancy.

I had to give up running about 15 weeks in because I was petrified that I was gonna fall over or something was gonna happen and I just felt I just wasn't enjoying it. So what else did I do? My diet, not drinking, although I had like a glass of wine here and there. I wasn't like super super strict. What else did I do?

Try to get a lot of rest really, although it's kind of ironic people say make sure you get loads of rest and you know, bank your sleep before the baby comes, which is just rubbish because the baby's here and you just don't get any sleep and it doesn't matter if you've had, you know, really good night's sleep two weeks ago, it's not going to make any difference.

And then, so yeah, and then at the time I was working every other week in London. So I would do a week working from home, a week working in London, but then towards the end of my third trimester, I stopped doing that. So I just worked from home the entire time because it was just really tiring trying to do that commute from Yorkshire to London every 

Chris: other week.

And at what point do you tell work and do you tell friends and family? Yeah. 

Gee: So [00:41:00] they say that you shouldn't. tell people until you reach 12 weeks because that is when you're over the riskiest part. So before then, you can be at quite a high risk of miscarriage, particularly if it's an older pregnancy, but an older person.

But we told, well, we told close family. Straight away when we found out it was kind of such a big thing and very difficult to not tell people if I had a second baby, I don't think I'd wait 12 weeks actually I would just tell people and I think again, it's more of a generational thing. I don't know why we keep it inside in terms of, I think it must be so difficult to have a miscarriage and I haven't had one so I can't speak about it.

But to then have to kind of grieve and go through that process in private must be so difficult. And then with work, I think it's legally you have to tell them before you're 20 weeks. I'm not entirely sure, but I wanted to kind of be as [00:42:00] open and honest with them as possible. And I had a by annual review.

And so I told them then they were really shocked. They were like, Oh, we didn't even realize you had a boyfriend. 

Nat: Didn't see that coming in the review, would you? Yeah. Like, Oh, one other thing. Yeah. 

Gee: It was pretty much that right at the end. I was like, Oh, by the way. So yeah, I told them when I didn't think I was even 12 weeks, actually, when I told work, but they were because again, after you've run your own thing or your own business.

I think you see how difficult it is. If you're employing someone who then goes off on maternity leave, it is very difficult, particularly if you're a small business. So I do see where the challenge is there. It 

Nat: must be. Well, one of the thoughts I had was, I mean, it's a serious point, isn't it, about It's a big difference in men and women and in their careers is having to go to your employer.

Men, I mean, I suppose men [00:43:00] go to the employer and say, you know, my partner's pregnant and possibly get a couple of weeks off for paternity. But for women, it's completely different. And there's a, there's a, you know, you've got a decision then haven't you? Often about how do you prioritize your child and your, your life changes.

Okay, again, that was actually a, that was actually a life changes that I didn't mean that time, but a life change that comes and you have to think, right, well, how's my attitude towards work going to change? And obviously your employer will be thinking, oh, their attitude towards work is going to change and it create, can it create this kind of glass ceiling?

That type of stuff. But for you, it sounds like that wasn't maybe so much of an issue because you'd already Kind of been away from the corporate world come back to the corporate world It doesn't feel to me like you were just kind of climbing the greasy ladder so to speak but there are other women who presumably Will be and you know quite rightly so that's [00:44:00] that's up to them they want to get on with their careers and go as high as they possibly can and there must I don't know where the question is in that, but can you talk to some of that and if that had a part to play in, in your discussions, or have you had friends who have been in similar situations who've had difficult conversations with their employer?

Yeah, 

Gee: I think work were fantastic. My employer was, um, fantastic. They were really happy. And my boss said, Oh, this is you know, the best news I've had in a while, which was a really wonderful response to have. I do work in investment and it is heavily male dominated, particularly when you're looking at mid to senior level.

And I can see why women drop out at this time in terms of when you're, yeah, when you've had a child, because it is very difficult. To continue, I suppose, pre [00:45:00] baby, post baby, because you just have so much more going on in your life, and your priorities change, um, the way in which you live life changes, and this might sound a bit controversial, but I think it's very, very difficult for two people to have Both have full time careers and be fully present and be there for their children.

And I'm a huge feminist, but I see why it is usually the woman who then takes a step back in her career. But I don't necessarily think that that has to be forever. And I think you can have phases of your career and you can have a phase of, you know, 5 to 10 years where you say, you know what, I'm going to step back in my career.

because I do want to give more time to my family. This doesn't mean that in five, ten years time, I'm not going to be come back and be even more focused and more driven than I was before. And I think for men, I mean, I don't know how you both feel, [00:46:00] but it'd be interesting to see here or Would your priorities change, do you think, if or when you have children?

And I also think there's a lot more pressure on the men to be able to provide for the family, even in 2023, than there is necessarily on a woman, unless there is a very clear distinction. with who the breadwinner is, I'd 

Nat: say. Chris, you'd have an interesting one, wouldn't you? Because you run your own business, so that would have quite a big impact.

Chris: Well, I guess it, I mean, this is all very hypothetical, so you never know, but I do feel I'd want to be hands on. You know, I've got my nieces and I like to be present for them. And also, my sister and her husband, my sister earns more than her husband, and so they have split things pretty much 50 50 the whole way along, like, They've been, I'm not sure their exact setup at the moment, but in general, they've either worked three or four day weeks and they've each done that.

And one will do [00:47:00] like, let's say Monday to Wednesday or Monday to Thursday. And the other will do Tuesday to Friday or Wednesday to Friday. And then there's only kind of. You know, Wednesday may be where they're both working. Yeah. Like I say, this is all very hypothetical. I'd want to be hands on. I want the business isn't where it needs to be from, you know, an adventure solos perspective, but I would want that to, I think if, if you suddenly had 12 months or nine months or whatever, to get it into a position where you can be.

You know, hands off enough, then I think that would be, yeah, very high up on my priority list and I think that would be achievable. Obviously there would be a more of a financial impact at the same time, I guess, because I am a bit older and if I meet someone that's also like, you know, bought a house and that sort of stuff, then hopefully, you know, you're in a place where, you know, you can get through financially as well.

So you don't have to both be working full time and you can be present. I don't know, [00:48:00] like I say, it's all very hypothetical, but yeah, that's how I would see it, that there's, I would want to be involved and, and hands on. What about you, Nat? You're keeping very quiet. 

Nat: Me, I mean, personally, I've kind of taken a step back from full time work anyway, and I've quite a decent amount of time, free time, let's say, in my life as it is, because I've kind of engineered that.

So I don't think it would have, you know, obviously it would have a huge impact on my life, but I would have the space in order to do it. Actually, to be honest with you, having a child is More, for me, I think I would struggle to struggle to be a sort of secondary figure. I think that's the thing, right?

Parents always say, you know, your child comes first and that makes complete sense from every aspect. But, you know, I see friends with kids and I'm like, oh my God. It's hard [00:49:00] work and I don't know, almost part of me thinks I'm too selfish. Like I just, I just value my free time and going off and doing stuff.

And like the thought of having to stay at home all the time and look after, I mean, I've got a dog, but I mean, I'm in New Zealand now. My dog's at home and some, you know, Saskia's parents are looking after it for six months. Even that responsibility I've managed to share with somebody else. So having a kid and then someone, you know, and then you're like, I want to go and do this, that, and the other, or go away for the weekend.

Hang on a second, how am I going to do that? I know that I'm painting a picture, like, you can't do anything with the kid, which isn't right. You can do lots of things, and there's different parenting styles, which I think is another question I've got for you, G, about your parenting style, or what your thoughts are on that.

Yeah, I just think that's one of the genuine fears that I'd have, is I wouldn't want to give up all my free time. And devote it to another being and that sounds really selfish, but that's the way I [00:50:00] feel I don't want to give up all my hobbies and these things that I enjoy. At the same time. I understand there's a trade off and that actually I might get something back, which is infinitely better than.

Doing you know having free time and doing other stuff with it. So yeah, I don't know That's just something that goes through. I 

Gee: think that's a really really fair point I don't think people necessarily consider how much I wouldn't say give up. I don't know what the right word is But how much of yourself?

Yeah, you do. I suppose you do have to give up when you have a child. And don't get me wrong, Bea is the best thing that has ever happened to me in my whole life. And I would give up everything for her. But there are certain moments where I think, oh, it would be so nice just to be able to go to the toilet and not have to worry about, like, a screaming child or whether she's going to crawl off to, I don't know, into the utility room.

Eat a washing tablet or something like that, but I don't think it holds you back from doing things [00:51:00] necessarily. So Paul and I both like hugely love adventure and travel and Paul's a teacher. So on maternity leave, we were really fortunate in that we had the summer holidays and we decided that we wanted to go and do a big trip.

And so at this point, we had just turned six months and we went to California and did a month's road trip. We flew into San Francisco and then went to Yosemite and then drove up north to Oregon and went to visit some of Paul's friends. We met up with some of my friends who I'd lived in Uganda with and then so did this huge loop.

It was about two and a half thousand kilometers we drove over four weeks and we ended up camping. I think we camped in the end for about 60 to 70 percent of it and it was just the most incredible insane experience and I look back now and I think oh my god how did we do that with a six month old baby and you know we bought a lot of the stuff out there [00:52:00] and yeah it was just incredible it was like the trip of a lifetime and having her there made it 10 times better than it would ever been if it had just been Paul and I.

Obviously we couldn't go and do the, like, amazing hikes that we would have loved to do in Yosemite. But, yeah, just to be there as a family was amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. 

Nat: Yeah, taking up, taking her up Half Dome would have been a bit risky, I think. But no, it's, it's, it's, to be honest, it's really nice to hear that.

that you're, you're able to go away and it's, it's possible. I guess it's just life changes and it's different. It's just a different experience, isn't it? It's neither better or worse or this or that. It's just different. 

Chris: I've seen quite a bit of that on your Instagram, G. Like, you I've seen you, like, I, I feel like you'd only given birth like a few days before and then you were off out for a run and posting pictures of your trainers at the door and stuff.

Gee: Yeah, which I'm not supposed to do, I didn't [00:53:00] realise that. So I was, I was, because I loved running and it, I think I was the hardest thing in pregnancy, not being able to go for a run. And you know when you've just gone for a really long run and you come home and you just feel amazing. And like all of those endorphins I wasn't able to get because although I was going to the gym, it's all like restricted to some degree and you're not going to go off and do.

A real intense HIIT session, and I think I'd had, I had still had so much adrenaline pumping around my body. Three days or five days after I gave birth, I went and did a 5k, and did the fastest 5k I've done in five years. Yeah, and then someone messaged me like, you shouldn't do that, you'll have a prolapse, which I think basically means Something happens inside that is not very pretty.

So then you have to wait eight weeks and then get signed off by the doctor so, until you can go and do, um, exercise. But yeah, I ran, I did a half marathon four months after I gave birth. Again, I think it's because I've been active during pregnancy, my recovery was a lot quicker. And, yeah, I think we just very much, we take the opinion that, you know, we're gonna live life and she is gonna come along with [00:54:00] us, rather than Obviously some things are restrictive, like, you know, going on big, big hikes at the moment.

But we've got a carrier now, so I think this weekend we're going to try and go and do a hike. She might only last an hour, an hour and a half in there, but that's great. And yeah, I'd love to do more camping with her. And yeah, just show her the world, really. Oh, it's 

Chris: so nice to hear, isn't it? Yeah, that's awesome.

So you, 

Nat: you, sounds like you had a chat about parenting style and, and not wanting, you've touched upon a few things there, not wanting, you know, wanting to get out and do things and show her the world. Presumably that's something you spoke about. And then I'm also interested in, so going back a bit. You find out you're pregnant, you're going to have a kid, and then often I think, well, how do you go about doing this?

How do you go about teaching them, you know, what do you, what philosophy do you want to give your [00:55:00] kids? You know, do you know that, that, not philosophy is the wrong word, but you know, that type of thing. How, how are you going to act with them when they're going to, there's differences between presumably, you know, when that, the ask mom, ask dad thing and all that.

And I've, it's been really interesting to see some of my friends who've got kids take totally, totally different approaches. And, you know, and it's really, you'll have all, we'll have all been there where you go around someone's house and things happen, and then parents act in different ways and you go, oh my I wouldn't do that and everyone's got an opinion, but you obviously keep your opinion to yourself most of the time, don't you?

Well, certainly you don't tell them, you maybe speak about them behind their backs, but you know So I'm interested In how far you've got with that And some people read a thousand books and some people read no books because they believe it's over information Where did you get 

Gee: to with all of that? Yeah, interesting.

So before [00:56:00] she was Paul's teacher, he actually came back from Australia and has recently retrained as a teacher, and he's a secondary teacher. And before he decided to do his career change, he looked a lot into Montessori, and I went to Montessori nursery. I don't know whether he did or not actually, but very much those principles.

So kind of simple as possible, you know, less is more very much. So there's research to show that three or four toys at a time is the kind of ideal number of toys that a child will have because then they'll be more resourceful with what they're playing with and you know, you should do toy rotation. Um, And we would love to say that we could follow Montessori principles of independence, et cetera, et cetera.

I think in reality, oh my god, half the time you're just trying to survive. So it's just like, I will give this kid anything that will continue to entertain them. I mean, we're very much like, don't like [00:57:00] her. She hasn't got an iPad. She's only one. But I mean, we wouldn't put her in front of her screen and things like that.

I say this. I'm 

Nat: always like, if I became a parent, that iPad is getting fully charged, and they're getting the iPad, and like, as long as it lasts, it's got batteries, then I'll be away doing something, but that's probably, that's another thing, 

Gee: but And I think we've learned that everything you think you're going to be like, or you say you're going to do, gets chucked out the window.

So I was like, okay, she, it didn't even enter my mind that she would have anything other than be breastfed, and then eight weeks in, for some reason, One boob worked and one boob didn't, so she had to be put on formula. And I felt so guilty giving her formula. I felt like it was pouring Diet Coke down her throat and it just kind of goes so against my principles and what I believe.

And it was just awful having to give her this formula milk. And Paul just could not understand what my issues were because he's like, gee, I, you can, [00:58:00] you, it means if you're, if you're not breastfeeding, you don't have to be here cause you really have to be on hand or. Be there every two hours, which really restricts what you can go and do.

And he's like, it would mean that you could go and, you know, you can go and get your nails done if you want. But I've just felt so guilty about that. So I gave a formula by the time she was eight weeks, I said, absolutely no way is she having a dummy. She will not have one. Eight weeks she had a dummy. What was the other stuff?

Oh, I said, yeah, absolutely. 

Chris: Why, why didn't you want her to have a dummy? 

Gee: Because I think, again, it was like a generational thing that I'd had from my mum in terms of she was always like, Oh no, you didn't have a dummy. And kind of, once you give it to them, it's then very, very difficult. The. Take it away from them.

And she still has one now and it's a bit of a nightmare. I won't lie. Only at night time, but it's still a nightmare. And then I was like, no, I wouldn't ever even like put her in front of the screen. We had a flight out to San Francisco, which was a nightmare. So on the way back, I was like, right here are headphones.

And here is a phone you are going to watch. It's this program called Miss [00:59:00] Rachel. Who's this American multimillionaire YouTuber now because babies are just transfixed by her. If you put her on. 

Chris: Were you embarrassed on the plane by, was she, were you saying she was noisy or whatever? 

Gee: Oh, no, not at all. I couldn't care less, but I think it's because we had a family behind there, an Irish family, and they had four kids and they're, I think they were 18 months.

They topped B in terms of the amount of noise they made. So yeah, I didn't care. I was just, I just want to get there. But apart from that, she, yeah, she's pretty good. So in terms of parenting styles, I don't know what to say really because everything I thought that would be like has been tossed out the window.

Nat: Do you think that's something? That I suppose it's an ongoing journey, isn't it? So do you think that's something you'll kind of revisit and maybe the first couple of years is just getting through it and, you know, making sure that she's physically well looked after, I guess. So then maybe does it come later that you [01:00:00] have to instill some kind of, you know, values and things like that.

And I guess, I mean, to be honest, a lot of people probably just have them, you know, just, we are who we are. We have the values we have some people. Yeah, wing it. And then other people, you have to, you know, read a hundred books and Google everything and try and figure out kind of what's best. I guess everyone's different.

Gee: Yeah, I think everyone's different and that's the whole point so you can read one book that says one thing But it might not necessarily apply to you I definitely think we have values and we were talking about the other day about being conscious and conscious parents and instilling What we think are important values.

So like, for example, every night, Paul gets home, probably about half five, six o'clock, I finish up work then, and then we all cook together, and we all sit down together, and we all have a meal together. And that is without a doubt the highlight of my day. And I think that in itself is probably teaching her a lot, you know, [01:01:00] just sitting at a table every night and having a conversation and just being there is a really wonderful thing.

So yeah, hopefully we just kind of lead by example as well as much as possible, but I think you're definitely right. I think the first year is more. making sure they're physically healthy. They absorb everything and I think you have to be aware of that. We're, and we're beginning to see it now, like her personality is really beginning to come out and she looks like she's the sweetest, cutest baby, but oh my God, she can be a total tyrant sometimes.

Is that Paul? I think now is the point at which we start to instill a bit of discipline in her. 

Chris: I'm, I'm interested in like, what you felt during pregnancy and we should touch on the birth as well, if that's all right with you. But Nat, are you still going, are you, yeah, if we're not done on parenting style, go for it Nat.

Can you think of 

Nat: any differences between you and Paul and, you know, how you'll approach those? Or has that come up yet where you're [01:02:00] thinking they want to do something one way and you want to do something another? 

Gee: Yeah, definitely. So I, and I think it harps back to your own childhood. So, I think I had very, very strict parents, like we weren't allowed to watch any television.

My mum cancelled my brother's seventh birthday party because he lied on the spelling test. We were kind of very rules regimented. Wonderful, don't get me wrong. But, and, but then Paul had a lot more freedom, so I think we were at two ends of the barbell and I think we're going to have to meet somewhere in the middle.

And I think if anything, I'll probably be the more strict parent. He'll probably be the more relaxed parent. But, to date we haven't really had anything where we disagree on, on how we've kind of gone about things. I think it You just sometimes come at it from a very different angle and the breastfeeding formula debate is a really good example of that.

And I think sometimes a mother's instinct, you can't really explain [01:03:00] it, but it differs a lot. And, but I also think it's important to listen, obviously, to the father and hear their experiences because I don't think that's always the case. There's so much time given to the mother's perspective. And sometimes you don't always hear the perspective of the 

Chris: father.

Have you, well, when, I've got some questions for this now. So one is, when did you figure out that you'd had different parenting styles? Was that after you'd had a child together, rather than, I presume it's quite hard to stumble upon that on the journey? 

Gee: I don't know, really. Maybe when we'd had her? I'm not 

Chris: sure.

Does Bea go to sort of grandparents, like spend time with your mum and, and, and on Paul's side, and do you see differences in in how they are with her? 

Gee: Yeah, so, well, my mum was a bit older when she I say a bit older, she was 36, so my age now. And Paul's mum had him when she was 26. So I think you definitely [01:04:00] see a difference, or what a difference of 10 years can make.

Yeah, I would say there's a different grandparent parenting style there. She's at nursery four days a week at the moment, which I feel incredibly guilty about, and then she'll be with a oh, and then she'll be with Paul's mum, and then my mum comes down as and when she can. Both grandparents still work.

Which isn't something necessarily that our generation had with their grandparents. 

Chris: Well, so you touched on guilt there and you'd said it before about breastfeeding as well. And that's what I was going to ask is, do you feel guilty? Obviously you've mentioned it. So occasionally you do, but, but I dunno, I guess in trying to be the perfect mother or parent, do you, do you find yourself feeling guilty about things at times?

And if so, how often or not 

Gee: really? I wouldn't say that I don't feel guilty about being the perfect [01:05:00] parent. I used to be a perfectionist, but thankfully I got rid of that in certain aspects. I think it's just, after you've had, I went back to work after nine months, but nine months is a really good, solid amount of time with your baby.

And then And every minute of every day is totally consumed by them, and then all of a sudden you have a whole day at work, say, and they're not there. It does feel really strange, and I definitely feel guilty the fact that she's at nursery, and In an ideal world, wouldn't be a nursery for a day, four days a week, but also it's a reality and it's a reality of how we live now and we do both have to work and thankfully we're in a rural area and we found a lovely nursery where their ethos is that children should be outdoors all the time.

So it's kind of like a forest school. So again, it kind of aligns to our values, etc, etc. And it's good for her social skills to be at [01:06:00] nursery, but I would still love more time with her than I do. Do you have now? 

Chris: Go on, take us back to that pregnancy journey. So did you, well, how was it? Was it uncomfortable?

Did you have highs and lows? Were your emotions everywhere or was it? Paul would probably 

Gee: disagree with me. Paul would have probably said that I would turn into like crazy woman, but I said, no, no, no, I'm fine. I had a wonderful pregnancy. No hormone fluctuations at all. Yeah. We went to Morocco. Where else did we go?

We tried to go away during the holidays and make the most of the school holidays. Yeah, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, And I was so, so lucky as well. I had, a couple of times, so when you go and have your scan, the midwife And actually, when you have your midwife appointments, they check whether you've had any movement.

So when the baby's kicking, and it gets to a certain point, 20 something weeks, when the baby should start kicking. And I haven't felt anything, so I was a bit nervous about that. And she sent me in for a scan for reduced movements. And they strap you up. [01:07:00] and they check your heart rate and the baby's heart rate, I think this is right.

And she was like, Oh, don't worry. You'll just be strapped up for five minutes and then I'll come back and you'll be able to go. And she did it. And then she came back after five minutes and she looked at the graph and was like, Oh, okay. I'll just keep you on for another five minutes. At which point you're thinking, Oh God, went away and then came back after what was 10 minutes and looked at it again and said, okay, I'm just going to keep you on for another five minutes.

So that was really the only. point where, you know, I was anxious or worried, but then everything turned out to be fine. And then she came a week 

Chris: early. So that's what you called full term before, was it 39? 

Gee: So that is full term. Yeah. Yeah. So it's full term, but so 40 weeks, what is 40 weeks? I don't know. 40 weeks is like.

That's your due date. So when you give, get given a due date, that is the 40 week date. Childbirth. It's quite funny, actually. 

Nat: This is the uncomfortable bit for us, isn't it, Chris? [01:08:00] 

Chris: It's more comfortable for us just having a listen. 

Gee: Yeah, more comfortable for you, for sure. Yeah, that's true. So, it was, it was a Sunday, and I had been for a coffee with some friends and a walk in the morning, and then we decided to go for late Sunday lunch, about five o'clock, and we're in the pub, and I was like, oh, I feel a bit of a twinge there.

And then I was like, oh, I don't know whether they're contractions or not, or fake contractions, which you call bricks and hicks, which you can get a couple of weeks up until you give birth. And Paul was like, oh, no, no, no, no. First time babies, they never come early. You'll just be having bracts and hicks.

And I was like, oh, okay. 

Chris: He just, just didn't want to leave 

Gee: the pub. And I was like, Oh God, no, that that's actually getting worse. I think we should go home. And he was like, okay. And I was due to give birth during half term. And then what would happen is it would be half term and then Paul would go on paternity leave.

And he was really stressed [01:09:00] out about his lesson planning and making sure that he had all of his lessons planned. So he came back and he was lesson planning and he was kind of stressing out about his lessons. And I was like, Oh my gosh, this pain is really getting worse. And he's like, look, it won't be Braxton Hicks.

Just why don't you just go to bed? You'll be fine. And I was like, Oh, and I thought, okay, I'll go and run a bath. So I went and ran a bath by that time. It was probably about nine o'clock. Paul went to bed and then it started to get really, really bad. And I was like, Oh my God. And I was screaming and Paul was still asleep at this point.

So I managed to get myself out of the bath. It was probably about 11 o'clock by now. Went into Paul's, to the bedroom and. You didn't 

Nat: wake him up, did you? Wake him up, did you? Woke him up. 

Gee: He had noise cancelling earphones in at the time. Yeah, and he was like, what, what, what, what, what? Because, 

Chris: because you had been screaming, it's like 

Gee: No, because, I don't know, and I was like, I can't do this alone.

He was like, what, what? I was like, I'm giving birth. So he's like, oh, okay, okay. So he came into the, and I was like, you're gonna have to time my [01:10:00] contractions. So he was there with the timer, trying to time my contractions. At the same time, he had his laptop open, trying to continue to do his lesson planning.

And I was like, Paul, I'm a giving perp 

Chris: here. Classic 

Nat: multitasking. Yeah. 

Gee: That's exactly what you would say. Who said men 

Nat: can't multitask. 

Gee: And then it got to one o'clock. And 

Chris: wait, sorry, your time in the contractions, so this is the time between contractions, is it? 

Gee: Yeah, so the time between contractions, and I can't even remember what they're supposed to be, to be honest, at what point you then have to call the hospital.

I just knew that I was giving birth and it was incredibly painful. And so I said to Paul, Paul, just call the hospital and ask them what I should do, because if you go in too early, they actually send you home. And we're about 25 minutes from Harrogate Hospital here. So I didn't want to go all the way in to then have to come all the way back.

So he called them up [01:11:00] and they said, oh, how is she? And he was just like, oh yeah, she's doing fine, she's doing fine. And then I had a contraction while I was on the phone and I screamed so loudly. And they said, is that her in the background? He says, yeah. And they said, well, if you don't want the baby at home, I'd advise that you get here as soon as possible.

And then I think that was a point where Paul thought shit, we could have a baby tonight. So we jumped in the car, got to the hospital, walked into the maternity ward, and I didn't know this, but when it is a full moon, the number of babies that are born increases. And it was the night before, yeah, no, it was the night before a full moon.

And I was really, really lucky to get onto the ward because I think I got the last bed. Wait, what's 

Chris: the science behind this? 

Gee: Sorry. No, so it's something, so it's something about the air pressure apparently. So when it's a full moon, there's I'm, I'm gonna 

Chris: Google it, yeah. 

Gee: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, ask any [01:12:00] midwife. Oh yeah, you will, you will.

There's more babies that are born and they actually said, had you come, come in a few hours later, yeah, there wouldn't have been a bed for you. So I'm, I've no idea where I would have gone. Anyway, so I get into the, into hospital and the midwife checks and I think I was about Four or five centimetres dilated, ten centimetres is full dilation.

So I was like fairly well on my way. Wait, 

Chris: sorry, Gee, I'm just, I'm on Google here, I can't help myself. The first two results I've looked at are, it's bullshit. One says folklore is a myth. That's true! But there's no significant difference in the frequency of birth, 

Gee: so. Well, this is not what my midwife told 

Chris: me.

This is Google fact checking anyway, but okay, we'll go with it. 

Gee: This isn't what my midwife told me. And then I'd planned. If needed to have an epidural where they put basically an injection into your spine and then you leave feeling from the waist down. 

Chris: Um, I'm sorry, when you say plan to have that? As in, that you were just [01:13:00] happy to do that.

Gee: Yeah, so you, before you were born, you were advised to write a birth plan about how you would like the birth to go, or like, in what scenario, you know, if X happens, then I would like Y. It turns out my birth plan was chucked out the window as soon as I got in there. Like, I expected that I'd have candles, I'd have music playing.

Got in there and I was just like, I just want this baby out of me right now. And so I asked her, there's a point at which You can't have an epidural because the baby is too far along the birth canal. So I just said to the midwife, Please, can you just tell me the point at which I need to decide to have an epidural or not?

She looked at me, she's like, Oh, you'll be fine. You won't need any painkillers. You'll get this baby out within a few hours. So I was like, Oh, okay. So they just gave me gas and air. And then Did that help? I don't think it did at all, but I wouldn't know, because I don't know what it would have been like without.

Chris: You didn't suddenly feel relieved from it then, or it was just 

Gee: [01:14:00] No, not at all. I think if anything it was just something to concentrate on. 

Chris: Is this horrifically painful at the time, at this stage? 

Gee: Awful. The worst pain I've ever had in my entire life. Awful. I didn't enjoy it at all. Like, some people, like, love birthing.

They love the birth experience. I was like, I just want this baby out of my body. And I had a very firm midwife, which is exactly what I needed. Like, she was really good. She gave me amazing direction. You hear so much, particularly at the moment, about the state of the NHS and, like, the lack of midwives and the state of some hospitals.

Yet again, I was incredibly lucky with my midwife and my midwife. you know, the whole birth. And then after a couple of hours, I got really, really tired and I was like, I just don't know if I can do this. And they thought that I was going to have to have assistance, which means the baby has to be pulled out with forceps or essentially get a cap on their head that sucks them [01:15:00] out and the baby's heart rate was dropping and yeah, I was just absolutely exhausted.

So they called the doctor in and then they started talking about, you know, these different contraptions and they kind of them out on a trolley and I saw them and something clearly kicked in in my brain and I was like, I am getting this baby out and this baby is coming out now. 

Chris: How, how are you feeling at this point?

I mean, that might sound like a daft question, but are you? Yeah, what's going through your 

Nat: head? Yeah, is it like pure panic or is it like adrenaline or I'm interested in that 

Gee: too. I think there's a lot of adrenaline. There's a lot of exhaustion. I think I wish people told you. That having a baby or giving birth is a bit like running a marathon and, you know, you should be fuelling throughout it and, you know, you're going to feel highs and lows and, but it's just like, okay, one minute you're in labour and then the next minute you've given birth, but it can be such a long process.

I mean, I've had some friends that were in labour, you know, for [01:16:00] 48 hours. I have no idea. How they do it, or how it's just even keeping your energy levels up is so difficult. 

Chris: It's interesting when you say that, cause yeah, of course it's like a marathon and that's never crossed my mind, but even a four hour berth, which would presumably be really quick.

And so when you say you almost need fuel in like. Sorry if I'm over literalizing this, but do you mean like you need to be eating and getting fluids and drinks in? Presumably on a drip, are you? That's putting water in, or not? 

Gee: No, I wasn't on anything. I had my heart rate being monitored and they tell you in your hospital bag you should take snacks and drinks and everything that you need.

But I hadn't really thought about it properly. My snacks were Curly Whirlies and Curly Whirlies are so difficult to eat. So I was like halfway through a Curly Whirly and then all of a sudden I'd have a contraction. So I was like choking on this Curly Whirly while trying to push a baby out. And I was like, Oh God, [01:17:00] this is awful.

Chris: What good pregnancy snacks be or birthing? 

Gee: Oh, anything which is sugar and that you can get in, so like, I would say the gels that you can have when you're running a marathon, for example. A bit of dried mango, maybe. Paul went and got some, oh no, so, they're very chewy. Very chewy, would be a good one. No, not chewy.

Paul went and got a can of Vimpto, and I will always remember Vimto will now always remind me of my birth. 

Chris: In a good way or a bad way? Can you drink 

Gee: Vimto now? Oh, in a good way, just like that sugar hit me and I was like, right, I'm ready to go again. But you have to remember that you haven't had any, so, you know, it's like six o'clock in the morning by now.

I've been in labour probably 10 hours, which isn't that long to be in labour. But I've had no sleep. I'm absolutely exhausted. And they're then telling you, the doctors then coming in being like, Okay, we're going to give you an assistive birth now. So there's so much going through your mind. And for your partner, I think it's quite difficult because [01:18:00] for them, they're watching you in a huge amount of pain.

They can't really do anything. Other than kind of be there. So when I was having my contractions, apparently I was holding Paul's hand and I was squeezing so hard. He was like, you have no idea how much pain I was in. And I was like, I don't think you can compare me squeezing your hand to the amount of pain that I was in.

So, so yeah, and then she came out at 7 o'clock in the morning. She just seemed to, yeah, pop out. So 

Chris: it all just sort of in the end, you know, it went from that stage. Well, you said you almost went, I've heard a friend's sort of partner was a word. Help me out. Helps with births. Midwife. Yes. Thank you. And she says it's quite often primeval and people almost just go to instinct in the end.

And that sounds almost what happened to you. Like you said, you saw these birthing tools come out or whatever, and you were just like, no, I'm having this baby now. 

Gee: Yeah, I definitely, yeah, I definitely think that happens. Yeah. Something inside my. Brain, clearly just kind of clicked in and it was like, right, you're coming 

Chris: out.

And [01:19:00] from that stage to like, actually having little bee in your hands kind of thing, is that what time horizon you're talking? I think 

Gee: it probably happened in about 20 minutes, actually. 

Chris: You're already in like, the worst pain you've ever been in. How's it for the next 20 

Gee: minutes? So just, oh, what, after she came out?

Chris: You mean? Well, well, during that 20 minutes, I guess it's even worse than the worst pain you've already experienced, is it? Yeah, I 

Gee: think it's like the peak pain. You know when you're running a marathon and you're just like, I just can't do this. I have, when you hit the wall and you're like, I cannot carry on.

How am I ever going to get through this? But something in your mind says you are going to get through it. You are going to do it. It's a bit like that. 

Chris: Okay, 

Gee: well, there's going to be someone in like listening to this thing, like, did you equate running a marathon to giving childbirth? Cause they are totally different.

Chris: I was going to say, I've run one marathon. I didn't enjoy it, but I wouldn't, I suspect playing childbirth is a bit worse. But, and then, sorry, you said an interesting thing then as in after the birth, like instantly. It's [01:20:00] gone, or you forget about it, or? 

Gee: Yeah, I think you just forget about it, and I was very lucky.

Again, probably too much information, but it's most people have a tear, and some people have to then go and have the tear stitched up. By some miracle, I didn't have any tear, and she had come out. the wrong way. So she was back to back. So her back was facing my back and it should be the other way around, which makes it more painful and more likely to tear.

But for some reason I didn't have any tears. So yeah, I was really, really lucky. And then, yeah, it was seven o'clock in the morning and then she was there. And then, yeah, you just can't believe that you have this baby in front, on your chest. And it, yeah, it's just The most miraculous thing that you can ever experience, I think.

Nat: And do you forget about the, like, childbirth quite quickly? I mean, is it like, just sort of move on to right now? What's next? I've got to look after. 

Gee: I think it [01:21:00] depends on your childbirthing experience. So I had some friends who've had very traumatic birthing experiences, and I think some people have to go through therapy.

because it's been so tough for them. For me, because there wasn't really anything to think about, I could just kind of focus on her, I suppose. But it's more, I was just in awe of her. 

Chris: And where was Paul at this point? Was he allowed to be present, or did he go and get some sleep, or what? 

Gee: Yeah, so he actually just fell asleep in the chair next to me, and I was like, I'm so tired, I'm gonna have to go 

Chris: home.

With his ear cancelling headphones on again. 

Gee: Yeah, so I was like, well, you may as well, you may as well go and get a sleep. Um, so I had until 12 o'clock in my own private room, where I'd given birth, and then I was taken on to the main ward, where there are, there were six alibis, I think, and then just coincidentally, my friend who we'd been on, the antenatal class with.

She'd given birth [01:22:00] on the same day, so it was quite nice that we were both on the wards together. And then they actually said to me, you can go home today if you want. I was like, no, no, no, I want to stay here. I want support around me. So I stayed in for a day and then I left the day after to come 

Chris: home. Did you ever consider having a home birth or was that just not what you wanted to do?

Gee: I, it did go through my mind, but only because I have a friend who was a hip therapist and then we're just too far from a hospital, being 25 minutes, if anything had gone wrong, and I got a lot of comfort and security knowing that I was surrounded. by medical professionals, uh, that was just the way in which I viewed it, but I know a lot of people get a lot of security by being in their own home and I just didn't want all the mess and all of the faff of having a birth at home 

Chris: really.

Did, did you ever look at like, I guess the pool birth stuff only works if you're at home as well, all that? I don't know, different stuff. 

Gee: No, I'd request, no, so this was in my birth plan. I'd wanted to go in the [01:23:00] birthing pool, but when I just got there, I was like, I don't care, I'll just pull the baby out. So I didn't actually go into the birthing pool.

I don't know if it was available. I don't even know if it was offered to me in the end. I'm not sure. 

Chris: I was going to say, so you can do that at hospital, is it? It sounds so ridiculous again, but I've heard of it. Is it just a little paddling pool where you can sit in and I guess you're supported like being in a bath?

Gee: No, I'm not sure. Well, from the photos on Harrogate Hospital website, it looks quite nice, but I think it's luck of the draw whether it's available or not. I think someone else was giving birth in there that night, so yeah, I didn't have the option. 

Nat: It's like going to the spa or something. That's what you were hoping beforehand.

And the spa's full, so you just have to do it like this. It sounds You know, I was just going to say it sounds like you kind of have all these best laid plans and everything and then, like you say, it goes out the window and do you sort of, you must have to trust the people around you a lot, right? You don't know what you're doing, do you?

You're just kind of there with all these [01:24:00] professionals and they say, This is, this is kind of how you do it, but presumably they've seen it thousands of times before. So did you feel, you felt comfortable trusting them? 

Gee: Yeah, exactly. I had, and I had total trust and total faith and confidence in the midwife.

So it was only one midwife was with me pretty much until the final hour. And then there has to be two midwives in there. Kind of during the final stages, I think, or if there are any other complications. So, I was with her, and I'd actually already met her when I went in for the scan for reduced movements, which I think is the plus side of giving birth in a smaller hospital like Harrogate than, for example, somewhere in London, is that I had that same midwife, which was lovely.

But, I mean, I've heard people have good experiences of home births, but I just wanted to be surrounded by professionals who knew what they were doing, and Um, yeah, that gave me a huge amount of [01:25:00] confidence, I would say. 

Chris: So then, you've got this baby in your arm, you're tired, you, you stay another night by the sounds of it in the hospital, but then, well, I was going to say like, what's the next 24 hours next week and next year, like?

Gee: Yeah, so the next week is, you're in this lovely little bubble, this newborn bubble with you and your partner, and pause, obviously, on paternity leave, and. You're in I wasn't actually in bed that much. I would say I was in bed a lot. I wasn't really in bed a lot. I kind of got up and still did things and I, I was at risk, not a risk, but I might have had to have a cesarean.

And the thing that worries me about having a cesarean is that you can't drive for six weeks. And because we're really, really rural, I was worried that I wouldn't be able to drive or get anywhere for six weeks. And I'd feel really isolated. But thankfully, that wasn't the case. And actually my one regret.

is that I was too busy as soon [01:26:00] as I'd given birth. I think, again, it was still all the adrenaline was being pumped around my body. So, like, I was up, I was doing things, I was going to baby classes when she was two weeks old. And now I look back and think, why on earth was I going to a baby class when she was two weeks old?

I should have just been at home, resting, because your body's just been through this, like, monumental experience. And then, and then Paul went back to work, which I, in some sense, found easier, I think it's because we're both very independent people. In some ways it's easier when they're not there because you've only got yourself to rely on, whereas when the other partner's there, if the baby's screaming, you're the only one there, you know, it's down to you.

Whereas if your partner's there as well, it's like, well, can you pick up the baby or, you know, if that makes sense. 

Chris: You've got to decide what it is between you rather than just getting on with stuff. 

Gee: Exactly, and then, because Paul was at work, and obviously he couldn't feed, and I would feed during the night, those first few weeks and months were quite hazy, I think, just because you're so [01:27:00] sleep deprived.

And then, yeah, it was just wonderful, I had a really lovely maternity, had a really great group of mums around, and I know a lot of people find maternity quite difficult, it can be quite lonely, but again, yeah, I was really lucky and just had the most wonderful time, really. 

Chris: Have you met other people like other mums and now parents through this?

Gee: Yeah, so doing NCT where you go and supposedly learn about what life's like when you have a baby What's NCT sorry? So it's called, is it the National Children's Trust? It's basically an, I think it was an eight week course and we went every week, partners, and there was a group of six people and you're basically coached through birthing and the birthing experience and what to expect, et cetera, et cetera.

But it's really just to meet other mums in the area. So I met a really wonderful group through that. And then loads of different baby classes on that you can go to. [01:28:00] And I had quite a nice routine. So like on Monday, it would be the gym with the babies. On Tuesday, you'd go to a baby sensory class, where there's just basically lots of lights and can be storytelling, et cetera.

And then, so I had something on every day. So that routine was good to get 

Chris: into. And is Paul sleep deprived at this point, or not so much? 

Gee: No, so we basically said, okay, I'm on mat leave, I'll do all of the nights. And then he would help out on weekends. And then when I went back to work, the way we do it is that we have a night each.

So I'll do one night on duty, we call it, and then he does one night on duty. And her sleep is a bit temperamental at the minute, so we're still sleep deprived. 

Nat: Have you got any advice for anyone who's thinking about having 

Gee: It is everything you'd ever hoped it would be, and more, I would say. You don't have any expectations, or whatever expectations you do have, be prepared for them to be quashed.

It is incredibly challenging, but it is the [01:29:00] most amazing experience, and You learn so much about yourself and not necessarily at the time. I think it takes, you know, a few months, even a year, and then you reflect back and you're like, wow, we've been through so much and it's such an incredible journey that you go through and you just learn so much every day.

And really it's probably the first time in my life where. You really put someone or someone else's needs wholly in front of your own. And yeah, you do lose, say, independence. Paul and I always said, you know, when we have a baby, we need to make sure that we retain our own identities and our own hobbies.

And we don't just become, you know Morphed into mom and dad, but that's very, very difficult to do. And you can, you know, you can still do a lot of the stuff that you want to do. You can go on adventures. You can go hiking and it's down to you, really, how you want to play it. 

Nat: Fantastic. Great answer. Thank you for that.

I think that's, [01:30:00] that's inspiring and, and give someone like me. Sort of some hope.

Chris: Hey, it's Chris here from Adventure Solos, where we help people in their 50s to rediscover themselves and meet new people. If you'd like to find out more about Adventure Solos events, visit AdventureSolos.com, that's AdventureSolos.com, where you're very welcome to stay in touch by joining the mailing list.

So AdventureSolos.com and enter your details to sign up to the mailing list.